WanderingAuthor

“Writer’scafe.org is a good one”; if you read their TOS, your rights to any work you have posted there are signed away – if you can still sell work after signing away the rights they demand, say if you have a story sought by the editor of “The Ten Greatest Stories of the Decade”, then the number of additional sales you could have made still means you have lost a large amount of money.

“I have taken most of my work off of here because it’s been sent out for publication somewhere” If your work has been on here, even for a short time, it has technically been published. You can only offer reprint rights after that. Should you sell any of those works for “first publication rights” in any geographic area, and the editor you made the sale to later learn you had first posted them here, you’d be blacklisted from at least that publication – and word would be likely to get around.

I just looked over EditRed, which I didn’t immediately recall. It isn’t the worst site I’ve seen; far better than WritersCafe, for example. However, I have at least two reservations from a quick review. First, the TOS is available, and more clear and honest than most, but it is relatively hidden when you go to sign up.

The second reservation is much more serious. The TOS includes the phrase “shall be governed by and interpreted in accordance with English law”. For US users, and probably users from other countries as well, English law puts them at several disadvantages. One, it is far easier to sue someone for defamation under English law. I’d rather not expose myself unnecessarily to that risk. Two, English copyright law has one or two unpleasant quirks I don’t pretend to entirely understand.

All in all, while EditRed, unlike WritersCafe, doesn’t quite make my list of “sites every writer should avoid even more than RussianMafiaMalwareDownloads.org”, it isn’t a site I’d recommend lightly, either, except to UK writers who are already under the disadvantages of English law.

I haven’t read your contract, and don’t know the circumstances. I do know “first publication rights” in any geographic area would rule out a prior appearance on any public site. Yes, you can make small sales to e-zines desperate for decent copy, even if it is previously published.

What I am saying is, every writer needs to understand just what they are giving away by posting their work on any site. Yes, you can get noticed; there are benefits. I wouldn’t have posted any of my own work if I didn’t believe that. But, like everything in life, there is a tradeoff, and I believe all writers ought to at least understand what they are losing, as well as gaining.

Some writers will call themselves “published authors” simply because one of the scam publishers picked them up. I find it hard to imagine any serious, published author making the mistake of joining WritersCafe. I don’t think I’d want to get involved with any editor or publisher who would spend time on that site.

Yes, there are great contests out there. You can find those without joining any community. Just check the sites that offer links for writers.

You mention several sites I haven’t commented on specifically. MySpace is not a writing community, it is a general social networking site. I have major issues with its design, but it could be used effectively as a tool by any writer willing to put up with those issues. Since there are too many sites for any one writer to effectively network at all of them, I choose to pass that opportunity by. For the same reason, I don’t specifically recommend it. Neither will I say it is a mistake, however; it is more of an individual choice.

OutsiderWriters is a bit different than many of the sites we’ve been discussing. I just looked it over quickly, but I don’t see any particular concerns. I’d say joining or not would be a matter of where each writer chose to spend their time.

Even EditRed is more a site I wouldn’t personally recommend, for reasons I’ve already explained, rather than a site I consider toxic to writers. However, the point remains that I checked WritersCafe today, and their TOS include terms that would send any knowledgeable writer or editor scurrying to find another site. There are no benefits to be gained worth agreeing to those terms.

I’m not cowering and afraid to get my work out there; I’m here on RedBubble, I’m on other sites as well, and I’m working on additional plans I hope will take my career in the direction I want it to go. I do choose the sites I visit carefully, for two reasons. First, as I pointed out, there are too many sites to spend an effective amount of time on all of them. It is wiser to select a few that work for you and spend enough time there to truly enjoy all the benefits those specific sites can offer. The second point is that there are sites out there which exploit writers. They anger me beyond belief, but they are there, and they thrive. Sometimes they appear to offer great deals, just as other businesses do that exploit their customers. But all such sites should be avoided; even if you don’t want to be a professional, why support, with your presence and your work, a site which actively exploits writers.

Yes, that is my point, professional writers do need to be careful, only posting work they don’t expect to be paid well for, or work they expect to generate enough publicity to justify the loss of sales. If you don’t care about a career as a writer, by all means, post what you like on RedBubble, your blog, or wherever. I do believe writers at least need to understand the possible consequences of their actions before they’re trapped in a situation they hate.

I never disagreed with the idea of networking; in fact, as I said, I work on the fringes of “Web 2.0” and I’m actively trying to develop a more effective networking site for writers. (No site that exists is even close to ideal from a design / planning standpoint.) I simply pointed out that some sites have terms that are disastrous. WritersCafe has terms that would destroy any hope of selling work posted there, and the terms are so terrible, the only authors or editors who would admit to being there are those who aren’t likely to be of much help to you. That site, and all the others with similarly worded TOS, are a disaster for anyone who hopes to seriously write.

I agree the Internet is a very useful tool for writers. I don’t advise staying away from the Internet, I advise learning which sites are valuable and which ones are harmful. RedBubble, for all its obvious shortcomings, is actually one of the better sites, as they at least offer reasonable TOS and there is a good community here.

I didn’t think you went off topic that badly, by the way. Anyone can digress a bit. :)

I agree completely. Nothing I’ve said here suggests you shouldn’t network, and seek to spread the word about yourself and your work. I only point out that you need to do it wisely.

Sorry; I wasn’t ignoring you. A thunderstorm and a computer crash had me offline for a while. And, even when I’m online, I do spend time elsewhere, you know.

As for your genius, I think you’ve made some very good points here. :) And I haven’t disparaged deliriousgirl’s talent; she’s written some very good stories. Which is all the more reason why it would be a shame to see them hijacked by a site designed to exploit writers.

Wandering Author, you sound like a man who has a wild imagination beneath all of that serious talk…

Well, of course. I am a writer. :D

do ya wanna go down, figuratively speaking, in history, by having a cyber with a famous Author known as Jennifer B

That’s an offer I’d find hard to refuse, if it weren’t already far too hot in here. :-) Seriously. The fan on my CPU is on overdrive, I’ve got an exhaust fan pulling the waste heat away from my computer, and I don’t think I could stand heating up that much more. :D

aww come on… I’m irresistible and you know it! lol.

I wasn’t even trying to deny it. ;-)

Thanks. I think it’s the fact sites that exploit writers hack me off! (Yes, I can say worse; I’ve said worse. But I’m trying to avoid the RedBubble censors. :) I get so furious at the thought of fellow writers being treated like that, I sound stiff. Either that, or I burn out RedBubble’s censorbot, which I don’t think they’d like much… LOL!

disaster for anyone who hopes to seriously write

I also offered exact, specific legal terms that are found in WritersCafe’s Terms of Service to back up this point. If the best argument you can offer in reply is

What a load of doodoo!!!!! LMAO!!!

then I think I’ve made my point. Until now, I had the impression you were more intelligent than you show yourself to be with this childish pout.

I got sick of the bullshit, I’d rather write for pleasure and retain integrity, than write for money for some pimp who goes under the guise of an Editor.

I hope to avoid the pimps and still be published :D but you have a very good point here. If a publisher wants you to sign away more than you’re comfortable with, don’t do it. You should control your own career, and not give in to pressure just to be “published”. And I respect any writer who understands what they’re doing and charts the course they believe is right for them, even if it isn’t what I’d choose to do.

Actually, that’s the very reason I object so strongly to WritersCafe; I believe they lure writers into agreeing to far more than they understand.

By the way, self-publishing has its pitfalls, but it is becoming an acceptable alternative, provided you handle it wisely. Even an editor acquaintance who always opposed the idea admitted to me recently there were reasons to go “that route”. LOL!

Aaw… but what goes up – must come down, and what gets hot – invariably cools… Can we meet up again during a cooler spell then?

As you already pointed out, you’re irresistible. :-) That should give you the answer.

Oh… by the way, the first one is always free!

LOL! Definitely irresistible.

I think beneath that stodgy exterior, you’re quite a nice man Mr Wandering Author… :) xox

Thank you. I have my faults, but I try not to pile them on anyone’s head without reason.

There are a lot of people who know many things about writing; many of them know more than I do. But, anyone who would recommend a site with the specific legal terms I pointed out in the TOS is being irresponsible, clearly knows very little – and anyone on that one specific site reveals, by their very presence, that they know little as well.

I don’t like lawyers, but they rule the world. So, anyone so foolish as to enter into a legal agreement without reading and understanding what they’re agreeing to (whether they’re able to do that themselves, or they need to hire a lawyer) is asking to get burned. And, anyone knowingly entering into such a draconian agreement is completely beyond my comprehension.

Note that until you came here to my journal and kicked up a fuss, I didn’t link to your comment and I didn’t mention your name. I was trying to protect my fellow writers from your irresponsibility without pointing a finger at you. If you regard that as more “personality challenged” than someone who is caught out acting foolish, first calling attention to their mistake, then making infantile replies when they can’t win the argument in any sensible way, you again call into question your own judgment.

I tried to deal with the situation civilly. If you come to my journal and start a fight because I don’t agree with your every word, expect to be shown up for what you truly are.

There was a time when Lulu offered decent terms; you could pull your work any time you wanted, and you only had to pay a percentage of the price on copies actually sold. (Even then, the other services they offered weren’t always a good deal, though.) And print quality was an issue in many cases, although some of that was due to users who didn’t understand how to create the files. I haven’t had the heart to see what’s changed since they crumpled under Amazon’s boot heels. :(

Really? Anywhere in particular you’d recommend? It could be a fun, little hobby to participate in, lol, I guess it wouldn’t be so bad if you were in control of the printing process fully and organised your own off-set printing… Some of the quality out there, is quite frankly, a load of shit.. Cafe Press being one of them I’ve noticed… although, it has improved in quality somewhat over time. What do you think of the new site known as Blurb.com? Last I saw the book sizes were pretty odd… And the mark-ups look expensive, it’d be great to use some place simple like that for publishing, get a copy of your files on CD, and then fire it off for printing yourself… yes? no?

LOL! You have no idea what a can of worms you just opened up. I’ve done printing myself; I still have a couple of old letterpresses and a rack full of cases of hand set type in my basement. Printing quality is one of my favourite things to rant about. :)

I haven’t looked over Blurb.com very well, but as you say, the sizes looked odd. That’s always a bad sign, because that forces the prices to be high. Non-standard sizes cost more to print; unless they find some printer where those sizes are standard.

You know, if you understand the principles of typography (and if you don’t, I’ll bet you could learn, it isn’t that hard), you can create the files yourself. Some printers require Adobe Acrobat files, but some can use any PDF file; WordPerfect gives enough control (some say Word does as well, but I have trouble getting it to do precisely what I want) to ‘print’ a PDF file you could send to the printer. Acrobat is expensive, but if you plan to do a few books, it isn’t that bad a buy – any printer could use PDF files generated in Acrobat. In fact, your main problem would be learning how to use all the features, and there are books or videos for that, depending on what you prefer.

Of course, that raises another point. Distribution and publicity are all on your shoulders if you arrange for the printing yourself. That’s why so many people use the sites that do the work for you. Then again, if you distribute through Amazon, they will now force you to use BookSurge. Google them…

I won’t say you shouldn’t do it, but you want to think everything through carefully first. Judging by the comments you’ve made here, I’m sure you could do it. But do you want to take on that much work?

Performance Art – wasn’t that what we were talking about, anyway? :-O

I’m waiting for a fine gentleman with a printing press, such as yourself become my Pimp and take me under your wing! lol

I didn’t mean to get your hopes up. That’s a letterpress printing press. Every letter has to be set, one by one, by hand. Then each sheet is printed, one by one, by hand. Nice printing, but slow as frozen molasses.

And I don’t think I’d make a good pimp; my sympathies are almost always with the underdog. :-)

Do you have any idea at all how erotic that process sounds???

The funniest part is, I didn’t see that until you pointed it out. :O

Oooh! But I’m most definitely an underdog! I’ll be even be your _over_dog if you’d like me to be! Oh… I will be your hot, lil, b*tch any time WanderingAuthor!

I think my CPUs fan is about to spin into hyperdrive. :O

I’m so glad you’re such a good sport and don’t mind me cumming all over your wonderful comment script…

I’m really not that fussy; I just hate to see writers getting, er… well, only if they’re having fun with it. :O

I knew deep beneath that stodgy exterior, lay a very hot man!

Hotter now than I was; you’d heat anyone up faster than a blowtorch. ;-) Uh… pun too funny to edit… :O