Rosalie Dale IPA

This is bad news but maybe good news try & find out what the fee is for selling you images & then if acceptable they will become exclusive shots .

To hell with them Rosalie, soon you won’t be able to blink in public.
Just ignore it I say :)

SO? to take a picture and enter thier comp you would have to pay a fee?
What a load of ^$#x%x*

I was only thinking about that the other day Rosalie, pretty soon we won’t be able to take photo’s inside national parks without paying a “fee”, it’s all about money, it’s a pretty sad world we live in, I often think “Stop the World I want to get Off”........

Society is going mad, even National Parks are getting in on this act with fees if you intend to take images in the park and sell them (something like $26 per day per person I think). But I ask this question: How is it going to be policed? As with most departments run by public servants they are struggling to keep up with their current workload, let alone add to it. About the only people they will catch out are the honest people. The rest of us will simply not put details about where the image was captured.

It is sad that it has caused you such distress as photography should be fun and rewarding.

As for the Hornsby photo comp I was aware of it when one time my wife and I went shopping at Westfields (Hornsby of course) and saw the images being displayed.

I’m with Johno on this one.
I’d try to find out if there is a council ordinance or by-law restricting the reproduction of photographs in public places. I’m sure that there is no notice at the entrance to the park instructing visitors on what is permissable, and what is not.

omg that is disgusting , when does our image no longer our own?
We present a feeling a sight and portrayal of how we feel and see the world, not only for our own enjoyment but now thanks to redbubble a pleasure for thousands to feel.
Who really owns the rights? The council Ie the government? the early settlers whom landed there and made it their own ? you because you took the time to capture a moment, a moment never captured in such a way as no photograph could ever be the same. Sorry I just really feel for you as many of my images are of public locations so doeas this mean they are no longer mine? they belong to the government?
I dont think its correct and I hope they are wrong for your sake

You should question the legality of the demand. These decisions cannot just be formulated and enforced on a whim. There are statutory processes in the decision making, and informing the public. If they have done all this, then you’re up the creek, but if on the other hand someone has decided to take advantage of a situation like the photo contest, and constitute it for future gain without going through the proper processes, then to hell with them.
They [the council] have to prove this to you.

I’m totally over this madness Rosalie!!!! Just go ahead and snap away and DARE anyone to come up and challenge you! Its just another cheap attempt to extract money from people who are merely pursuing a hobby.
You are in a public space, no doubt funded by the rate-payers in the area, so it’s fair’s fair as far as I’m concerned. It’s OK if they use the results of a photo comp for their publicity – that’s a nice way to set parameters and reward those who take the time to enter – but I think they might be more productive in spending their time in policing litterers, dog-poo and totally obnoxious kids who hoon around disturbing the ambience of open, public spaces!!!!
I agree with johno4280 – #$&**$!!??*###

Tell them to read this:
http://www.4020.net/words/photorights.php

And – if they mutter things about taking photos of kids (as if we would be so stupid) point them in the direction of the person with a camera phone – not someone with a large, black, Darth Vader, camera who is openly doing what they enjoy.

Grrrrrrrr!

Here here!

A lack of notice at the entrance of the park for me says that the council has not been able to legally enter a contract with you regarding your usage and payment of the images. Short of that then they must show what applicable by-law pertains to charging people after taking images on what I suspect would be crown land (as opposed to council owned land).....

A whole minefield there for them to go though. Keep them up for sale Rosalie.

This is such craziness!!! If they haven’t made it clear within the park that there are “rules” pertaining to photography, then I say forget you ever heard from them!!
Keep your beautiful work for sale!

Many of these fees that councils try to impose are ultimately not lawful. I would question it’s legality

Tell them to take a hike Rosalie. Or you could use the other words that can’t be printed here. LOL As far as I can see it is another way for council to raise a little bit of revenue to pay their councillors to do nothing. I also agree with Heather that the park is funded through rate payers money.
Just keep doing what you are doing and don’t worry about the buggers.

Let me know when you get locked up for causing trouble, Rosalie. I want the exclusive. :-)

That’s absolute rubbish Rosalie. I’ll do some digging around the LG Act and ask some colleagues about it and get back to you – Will (Local Government Engineer :D )

There are no ‘rules’ that they can apply. There’s heaps of legislation on-line that can verify that.
Why am I in such a tizz about this? Because, a while ago, Lisa Kenny and I were asked, by a quite pleasant security guard, to leave the Southgate precinct in Melbourne because were were taking night shots of the Yarra River in their huge, public access, lobby entrance. When we questioned why we had to leave and not the gaggle of tourists right behind us with their point-and-shoots and camera phones she said that ‘we looked like professional photographers with our large cameras and tripods’. Two sets of rules????? We didn’t make a fuss but I’m getting close to it! When I emailed the Southgate Administration objecting to our treatment, they apologized. Not one mention of legalities or the such.

I think you have told us previously that Fagan Park was GIFTED to Hornsby Council for the enjoyment of the public. Hope Will comes up with some evidence to show that the imposition of such fees is not legal. Give ‘em a run for their money Rosalie. What are council rates for, anyway? Margo

Crazy…...leave your shots up for sale Rosalie.

So does that mean that photos taken in any reserve, parkland, state forest, council property etc. etc. we will have to get permission.
If you must do something, just remove any reference to Fagan & keep them posted. I’m not usually one for disregarding the law, but this is ridiculous. After reading some of the comments, I’m wondering if it is the law, or just some persons asserting their own self importance.
I suppose I should go check my gallery.

Greedy bastards….........just leave your shots up for sale on RB that what I would do….......stuff e’m.

Nice work Rosalie! You do know a “bit of blow “means cocaine right? lol

Recently Ken Duncan,,,got fined for taking pics in a national park in Cairns,,, now if the leading australian landscape photographer cant take photographs without paying fees ect… then the rest of us dont stand a chance!!

I agree with the above, Rosalie !!! I’d try what Gail said and remove the reference,also the same as Hans and just leave them up on RB. If this is the case, what happens if there is a wedding there, are they going to charge the B&G and wedding photographer too??? Sounds like they’re not making enough revenue out of parking fines etc. I second Hans’ description !!!!

Have you actually checked this? that they legally can stop you from selling the images?

I agree with John all the way. They have no case.

Try taking a picture of this in London without having a security guard almost demand money off you on the spot!

It’s a mad world

A majority of my images are taken in a National Park, which is visited by thousands of tourists each year,( all with cameras) and I looked into this a while ago for this very reason. From memory, no council/national park or anybody else can copywrite a ‘vista’ or stop you from using your camera. It does apply to film crews etc who have to pay a small fee and obtain permission. Sounds like a council worker with a false sense of their own importance.

Oh gheesh! Don’t you wish you had billions of dollars for top notch lawyers just so you can call their bluff!

This is a very sad state of affairs Rosalie. I understand fully what you were trying to do and like most of us we want to promote the areas we are proud of to the world – if we sell an image a long the way then we are thrilled. I wouldn’t worry too much, do as others say and maybe rename the images. I got pulled up one Sunday while taking photos of the now abandoned but very beautiful BHP admin building in Newcastle and had to erase my photos in front of the security guard. He stated it was a Public Trust building and that no one could photograph it, not even wedding parties were allowed there despite its beautiful steps and gardens. It just sits there empty and deserted. A story like the one you tell would go well on Tracey Grimshaw’s time slot should you have more trouble … or better still we could hold a photo sit-in outside Hornsby Council, I’m sure we could get a few supporters – imagine us all being carted off in paddy wagons – now that’s growing old disgracefully!!

Rosalie, this has completely taken me by surprise as I also could not find any “Policy” regarding restrictions on the sale of photography of Fagan Park.
Perhaps we need a petition? AND a Fagan Park Photography club that meets there once a month !!! :-)

If any of your government taxes go to pay for the upkeep of that park, I would think you’ve paid your fee and are still paying. You mentioned it’s a “local” park. Let the “non locals” pay a fee. You’ve paid yours.

FYI…....

Commercial Filming in the Shire

Fagan Park Page 36.

Fagan Conservation MP Pages 61, 68, 101.

Fagan Park

Stuff ‘em! I’m not a lawyer, but every bit of research I’ve ever done on this says that there can be no such restriction. In particular, there’s nothing stopping you selling those pics now that you’ve shot them.

Please don’t take your pics down, you’ll have an army of friends to take on the Council with you should it ever come to that.

Hiya,
I was directed to this site sometime last year:
http://www.artslaw.com.au/LegalInformation/StreetPhotographersRights.asp

Basically the rules are as follows:
Wildlife and National Parks

The Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Regulations 2000 (Cth) includes provisions restricting the taking and use for commercial purposes of photographs in Commonwealth Reserves, including Kakadu National Park, Australian National Botanic Gardens, Christmas Island National Park, Norfolk Island National Park, Commonwealth Marine Parks and Reserves. To take photographs for commercial purposes in a Commonwealth Reserve, you should contact the reserve for a permit. Conditions may be imposed on the taking of the photographs. If in breach of the limitations, you may be fined and required to surrender all copies of the photographs and the camera used to take them. For further information contact the relevant Commonwealth Reserve.

It all sucks!!

You can print off the ” Street Photographers Handbook” – it is very useful to have on hand.

You are concerned about taking shots with intent to sell. What about authorities stopping you even knowing there is no intention to sell. This bothers me much more.

It is all over the top!
I was pulled up by a security guard for photographing the water fountain in Hornsby mall, told to stop taking any photographs in the area. For the sake of peace I complied.
Reading through the information on Fagan Park and the Hornsby council link, all I see is reference to people filming. Even the application form for Filming and still photography does not really address hobbyist photographers as such. When trying to work out the fees to apply for a permit, the closest you get is a “group of less than 10 people” for which the cost is $0.00.
So I can’t see the point of targeting single photographers anyway. It’s all basically geared to filming videos/movies etc. There was no fee or specific limitiations applied to single photographers that I could see. Maybe I am wrong. Is Fagan Park a commonwealth owned property?

There are people who do make more than $1 on images they sell, but those people are more likely to be the well recognised photographers, possibly those who shoot images for newspapers and magazines. But I agree with you, that there needs to be better definitions of still photography and possibly categorising them. How on earth they would manage to enforce anything is mind boggling. There are people out there taking photos everywhere every day.

From your perspective, just remove any mention of Fagan Park from any of your images, and dare them to prove that is where they were taken!!

I’m sure no one can copywrite a landscape, and i’ve never heard a landscape complain about privacy laws, so that said, what exactly are you doing wrong by photographing this place? Is it free to get in to the park? It seems like they are just trying to make money out of you, and it stinks! The worse thing is that you were trying to do them a favour by bringing in new tourists! The cheek of them!

OMG..what a load of ”@$#@&”...How totally pathetic can councils get!!! Grrr…*-(

If it was me I’d go in and photograph any garbage lying around, overflowing garbage pails, dog poop and any signs that tell you to pay for this and that. Post these shots all over the internet with the name of the park but don’t put them up for sale. LOL! You might even offer them to the local newspapers for free. :)

WOW – sucks to be creative hey! This only heightens my HATRED of local government – totally useless, even more useless than tits on a bull.

I find when shooting somewhere where there might be issues with law etc. it helps to just say your an artist making artworks,avoid the “commmercial purpose” terminology – there is no set definition for it anyway, but just say you’re taking shots for your own curiosity and satisfaction and expression. You might end up selling an artwork based on the experience. (I think ppl are afraid of challenging you when you calim to be an artist)

You know council’s just scam money any way they can! they’re all the same all over the world.

Wow … Rosalie … this really stinks. I agree with Nigel … looks like a way to scam you out of money. Is there a way you can determine if this is legal?? I mean SERIOUSLY!!! Is it in their local bylaws anywhere??? Or was it POSTED anywhere when you took your shots?? Can you send them a copy of the Canadian Photographer’s Rights thingie?? Your Canadian Rights As A Photographer

... just read further and realized you’re Australian not Canadian … doh!!

This is an unfortunate trend. You are right about photographer’s rights. Unfortunately, most of us lack the resources for an extended court battle.

This is insane. I don’t know very much about Australian law, but if it’s the same as here (U.S.), they would have to be able to prove that the pictures were taken in the park in order to enforce any of the ridiculous rules they’re claiming they have.

I would also assume that if you’re in a public place, they shouldn’t actually be able to charge fees. You may want to check to see if there are laws that override the council.

Another trick we’re able to use here in the U.S. is to get the local media involved. See if they’ll do a story on how the Council is making unfair rules for public areas, and treating local artists poorly. A lot of times organizations will back off if there’s pressure from the public and the media.

Such crazyness!
If this happened to me, I should certainly get the local media involved and hopefully get things straightened out legally that way. Such idiocy should be stopped before it gets too widespread.
And do keep the images here – but remove any reference, they don’t deserve your exquisite marketing of the place.

Fagan Park is great for “Wedding ceremonies and photography” … with NO mention of permission or fees!!!

See HERE

Unless they have prominent signage as you enter the park, then they don’t have a leg to stand on. Also, council land is public land, so I doubt they could enforce any charge for taking images and selling them.

Rosalie – why don’t you just post the pics here for sale until the Parks people send you a cease-and-desist? Which should be about never, because DC Comics has yet to stop all the batman/joker tees, LucasArts to stop all the Stars Wars references, etc. Unless you gave them the URL in a sit-down meeting, there’s no way every parks agency is scanning through the internet looking for taxpayers selling photos of public land. In the US we starve our parks for funds and then wonder where all the forests go, but OTOH, no one gets sued for taking photographs. That said, I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV.

Each country seems to have different rules re model release etc.

UK
USA
AUSTRALIA