RedBubble

Hmmmm, tough one.
I’ll take the artistic stance and say that we strive for our creative self to be unbound by limitations, therefore perhaps our acceptance for others art / point of view should “try” to be unbound by limitations.
I have one little ethic I apply to myself when looking at anothers artistic creation, If I don’t like it I look away and move onto a piece that I find more visually pleasing.

How lame. If you go here you can see the majority of the discussion stirred up by this piece was interesting and rational, if somewhat robust. I suspect this has more to do with the fallout of the usaphotocomp and not wanting to piss off your biggest and growing market. If that is the case, just say so. RB is a commercial venture and that reasoning is sound. Don’t hide behind “we support free speech” rhetoric that isn’t supported by your actions.

this American is smiling

It’s a difficult decision to make no doubt. America is often seen as softer, more acceptable target, and I wonder how people would react if the level of aggression was expressed against a minority with less power such as Australian Aborigines. Then again, racism is generally accepted as discrimination from a position of power to one of less power, rather than the other way. And art is often meant to be confronting, just ask Serrano.
Ah well, I suppose you have those guidelines to take away the possibility of personal bias, and by the guidelines this work should be removed. If you made any exception then you guys would be in trouble. So fair enough.

Betelnut. For me the decisive point was that I would not permit an image which desecrated a Koran, Star of David or Bible with blood or excrement (for example). Such desecration can only be seen as inspiring hate. And therefore to be consistent the desecration of national flags, revered by millions, falls into the same category.

It was not a material consideration whether removing the images would or would not improve our US presence. If this was a concern we would simply have deleted them without comment. We would certainly not be leaving them up now so the community can be fully informed.

I agree with RB’s decision. Free speech is indeed as Mundy states, a slippery slope, but in these instances I think the decision is correct.

Hmmm, I have no problem with either one of those images – not particularly crazy about them, but I don’t see any issue. I’ve looked at them closely, and read through the comments, and yep, they certainly are stirring up a lot of s&^*.

BUT, as far as I can see, mick, whatever some people may think he is trying to do here, is merely expressing a political opinion. He is not condoning violence or racism, simply saying that he thinks the current political situation in the US is wrong. This is how he sees it. An artistic expression of his political views. A lot of Americans seem to have taken offense at this, because he is not an American – so be it. Australia, Canada, and every nation could be commented on in similar ways for political views – it’s just one man’s view. Must I be a citizen of a country to merely comment? How insular…. And whether any person agrees with mick’s opinion or not is irrelevant.

I don’t find the images racist or promoting violence. Misguided? Perhaps. But that’s just my view. :-)

Gee, this decision is causing almost as much stirring as the images themselves!

In Australia, Holdens are revered by millions. Are these off limits also?

These pieces are deliberately inflammatory – not exactly masterpieces of subtlety or social commentary, either. I suspect that the only time this will become a serious issue is when someone deliberately sets out to challenge the guidelines here – I find that most any message can be portrayed without resort to such blunt-force moralising.

Gee…the need to make mean comments on all the other countries…... where are all these mean comments on all of these countries? and who is making all of these mean comments Huh? just curious. Glad to be updated.

This approach is solid and sturdy… but I don’t think that it will sustain over time from certain experiences I’ve had… in some minds it tips the bias of freedom of expression to one side of the scale…

I still am an advocate for a more constructive approach… I hope one can be found… I think it is good though that this has been uprooted and deserves public trial… however, it is one way to calm a ‘particular’ group but incite another and that is a perpetual cycle… I’ve had ideas and expressed them elsewhere so I’ll leave it at that…

Why not respond in your experience by producing another piece of art in response?... express that americans can be the opposite and that australians can be tolerant… love thy neighbour and stuff but allow for individual perspective and discussion… channel your pain and make something great!!!

Use all of your communication skills not just the skills of anger and frustration… reason, think laterally… don’t become that which you don’t respect because these arguments in a text based world can degrade very fast in public spaces and that just hurts everyone.

I feel this will create more of a fall out in opinion than the pieces themselves.

It changes the focus… I understand there is a balance to be met… but this will always come back to the same debate… what is art to you? and what is art to me? and there is NO answer…

100% behind you Martin as I see this in the same light. I feel, this post is something necessary for discussion.

I’m all for freedom of speech, yet the images are very disturbing as I feel they discrimnate against a nation and its people. Images such as these, to me, is like saying “yeah if you’re american, you deserve to get shot/stabbed/murdered etc” which is absolutely horrible to a person and humanity in general. This is the message I get from these images posted. It really offends me.

Sure it could be one man’s view, but look what that man has caused??? The power of one is just as great as the power of many.

Do we really need images of degradation and violence to get a message across?? Life is worth so much more than that. So much more. Can’t we celebrate the greatness of being a person??

As a 56-year old American, I see nothing wrong with Mick’s controversial art; in fact it reminds me of my younger years in 1960s! i think these subtle measures are probably a good idea. However, Our world is becoming to upset & fearful or sensitive -to be effective! Take a walk in nature, get some good photos – this what is important. Bush is just bad gas that will float away.

Wow, you’re getting a lot from those images. I see them as commentary on what mick thinks has happened/is happening. I’m not getting any message promoting violence against Americans at all.

Just because something is disturbing doesn’t mean it promotes the act. I have a photo of a kid sleeping on a bench – passed out – obviously drunk or drugged. It is sad, disturbing, etc – I certainly am not promoting this, or trying to denigrate the person, just noting the horrible situation some people find themselves in.

except that you didn’t create that image, Sara – you captured it. This particular piece is clearly a reflection of the creator’s views and politics, rather than a reflection of the world around him – obviously there’s a fuzzy line between the two, but this falls clearly on one side.

Sara
My point about the images is that they deliberate desecrate a symbol revered by many in a violent way. Unless we would allow all such desecration (a Star of David juxtoposed with a Swastika for example) then we cannot allow it. We need to be consistent. Thank you for your input.

I agree with Sara. I hadn’t seen these works and I missed the debate but I have to admit I’m a wee bit disappointed with RedBubble’s decision.

i saw these images as political statements and not attacking America, but attacking its policies and the cause and effects of the policies. It is not far off from what a lot of Americans I know feel. A lot of blood has been spilled from these policies. So my feeling is if you don’t like Mick’ s images, why keep going back. to look at it. Censorhip is not democratic which is what America is supposed to be about. I believe in freedom of speech and artistic expression should be protected as well. I don’t feel Red Bubble should be pressured into censoring this work. .One thing I have gotten exhaused from in my country if you diagree with the war policies you are called unpatriotic, and its just wrong. A country that has let a city like New Orleans go down as we have here has had its heart ripped out in my humble opinion

I have no issue with either of these images and I do feel that they are clearly a political statement about one artists view of the current US government not the US people. They could have been more subtly done but I wonder if the message would have been the same, they’re in your face images and if that’s how the artist sees it then so be it. Pretty pictures as art are nice but I think the most powerful art comes from raw emotion, it’s not pretty to look at but it has something to say. These images are hard to take and deliver a distasteful message but in the current political climate I tend to think they’re valid. In trying to understand the Americans outrage about these images I’ve asked myself how I would feel if it were the Australian flag in these images how would I feel. Frankly if someone wants to make a political statement about Howard I’ll applaud them. Although unfortunately he’s not a terribly interesting subject. I don’t see them as racist images but as political commentary and so my vote would be to leave them up.

These aren’t by any means condoning violence towards America, just representing the violence America/Bush has given the world. I do not think they demean a nation, they represent its views. Even in America we openly speak against our war and president. I have seen far worse in traffic on bumper stickers (i.e.”BUCK FUSH”).

Bobbie and Sussan
I keep coming back to their use of the American Flag to make their point. They could make the point without this symbol (and that would be fine). And if we let people use the flag in this way, we have to let people use the Koran, Star of David, Bible in similar ways. And I just don’t think we can accept this, therefore we need to be consistent.

There will be no settling this debate – it’s why I very seldom talk politics, lol. And that’s what this is about – politics not art. So… in deference to Pilgrim (even thought I disagree, lol)

RedBubble RULES!

:)

I agree with Bobbie, I see it as political commentary. Furthermore, I personally see the American Flag (and other flags) as a symbol of the state, not of the people.

I have no issue with the use of the Koran, the Star of David or the Bible either, I have a bible of my own that’s flagged for a burning as part of a social commentary artwork…I guess I won’t post it here.

One note though – I see no problem using other symbols either – including the religious (Star of David, crucifix, etc) and nationalistic (flag etc) in a work of art.

And Jonathon, let’s say I hired a model, make them look like crap, and had them pose on that bench….is my image then “bad” because it’s created, not found?

Put the politics aside.

RedBubble have a business to run and have every right to do it their way.

They have consistently listened and taken many suggestions onboard from the ever-growing membership.

Take a breather folks.

Sara: Um, yes?
At any rate, rather than ‘bad’, I’d say that that image is now a political statement – you’re constructing a situation with the intention of conveying a message.
My question about this particular image runs something along the lines of ‘why has the creator chosen to construct such a statement? What are its the implication for the rest of the art here, and are we willing to accept the ramifications of allowing such imagery’

I must have simple mind, as I took the images at face value. I didn’t see them anything deep and meaningful. I’m with Darren. Now back to spring cleaning.

THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!

Oh my word, you have no idea how much this means to me. Thank you for finally stepping in and doing something about that. It is such a relief to know that someone is willing to step up and set some guidelines.

Thank you so much!!

-Brittany

Darren is absolutely right – RedBubble needs to run this as they please.

I’m shutting up now, before I get myself into trouble! Off to take care of the important things in life – if I don’t go buy cat food soon Tiger is going to have serious issues.

RedBubble is a commercial business just like any other business run along the same guidelines and constraints. I agree that they need to make guidelines regarding content. If you want to make a political statement, then maybe your own site is the best place to do it. Fortunately, art is dictated by trends and trends have a way of coming to the surface regardless. RB is doing what they think is right and we must congratuate them. Art is art…...........it will never be hidden but we need to put guidelines in place to conform to what is right in our society at a particular time.

I can see Darrens point that Red Bubble is a business and that potentially inflammatory images could be bad for business. I find it dissaponting that art has to be watered down for business but that’s life I guess. Before I bow out of the discussion I want to thank Red Bubble for opening their decision up to debate and being upfront about it rather than just deleting the images. And it has given those of us that like social or political commentary a better idea of what the guidelines are here.

I’ll go take some pretty pictures.

I have strong views on a range of issues which are currently debated the world over. I acknnowledge that my views are probably shared by many but I don’t think RB is the place to air them. Art is universal but it also comes with a certain degree of responsibility. Piscasso was a nut…........but he was a genius nut and I doubt anyone got the gist of what he was trying to protray.

How very unfortunate.

My work gets to stay. Curious.

I’ll be interested to see how consistently and thoughourly this is enforced and what sort of backlash occurs. I’ll also be interested to see how far this concept is ‘generalized’ and how many different ‘groups’ it grows to include.

It’s a big call to make.

And without passing judgment on whether it is the ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ thing to do, there is obvious hypocrisy in using phrases like ‘free speech’ and ‘freedom of expression’ and then go on to silence people by censoring content. Actions speak louder than words and that could be very easily misconstrued.

I have said from day dot that when I play on RedBubble I play by the rules, and these are the new rules so I accept that. But I do wonder what the collective reaction will be.

I found that curious too Kate but I wasn’t going to mention it because I’d hate to see your work go.

Kate, that’s what I was wondering about! What’s more, you won a prize with it. Hmm.

I think the difference between Kate’s image and these ones were the violence associated with them. That seems to RB’s point of view. It seems to be that the line is drawn when violence comes into the equation.

Obviously there has been a shift of opinion in the RedBubble camp. I really wished I’d turned down my prize when I received it. RedBubble once had potential, now it’s just a catchall for a growing throng of morons whose voices are far stronger than the “art” they produce.

Well said Kate

I would suspect that your work gets to stay because it is significantly different in execution than the pieces in question here. Again, it seems to me that that issue is not the intention behind a piece, but the way in which it is carried out.

there are other ways to deal with this… there really are… I want to set up groups… I hope they will be approved… this issue has been plaguing me at RedBubble for months and months and I have actively researched other ways of communicating but still allowing everyones voice… the problem occurs where there is pain or offense… that is personal… and not one of us… not one of us… can assume that we understand each of each other… or something…

please… let’s use everything we intelligently know to make a project out of this and make redbubble the shining example to the world…

I’ll tell my ideas if anyone is interested.

I think it gets to stay because they awarded it a prize and would looking pretty f%$&ing stupid if they removed it now.

David a quick search of “violence” and “blood” shows that RB is not adverse to strong graphically violent images. It seems more and more that it’s the outcry from some who didn’t bother to try and understand the message that the images hold that is the problem. I might have to start a campaign against the endless religious messages which I currently ignore, that is possible you know, but hey I find them offensive if I get enough people to kick up a stink will they be removed…

I was going to shut up wasn’t I….oops

I propose that all anti-Bush/America clothing and art needs to be taken down soon.
If you want to make a rule, prepare for the witch hunt.
Someone might find these offensive/ inciting hate

Bobbie don’t you shut up yet

Bush is not a symbol and as such I think is a very legitimate (and deserving) target.

Touché, Bobbie. :)

I don’t find them offensive because they are the view of one particular person who has a right to freedom of speech and opinions. I am just not sure that RB is the right place to air those views. I love art in whatever form it takes, whether it be political or otherwise but I think the main argument here is whether RB is the right forum to display these views given that it is a commercial avenue and open to the general public for the sale of art.

I am divided on the issue…...........

Must admit…....I like the first image but I would make the horns a little sharper!

I am unsure has to how these guidelines can be enforced consistently as each “controversial” image really needs to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

What if the images mentioned were made by an American ?

What if an American produced similar images using an Australian flag in regard to the “White Australia Policy” ?

I can understand why the decsion has been made, but I can also see circumstances under which these images could have stayed.

some artist draw all of their inspiration from politics and activism… to say that RB is not the right place to express opinion nullifies their art completely…

that isn’t fair…

How come no one points that the blood on one pick wasn’t really well done or realistic looking and on the 2nd image he didn’t even take the time to iron the table cloth?

At the end of the day, those who provide the red bubble service have to be happy with the ethics of the service they run. This may mean inconsistency, over zealousness, over tolerance, over indulgence or whatever because remember, pretty well everything IS subjectective and no-one is perfect. Even if I dont agree with the removal of all the images, I think they have been pretty considerate.

1. The images were reported back to them – so the objection was initiated by a redbubble user
2. They took advice from moderators
3. They did what they feel was the fairest thing to do.
4. They are even allowing us to comment on it.

Pretty impressive really – the exercise of most editorial rights give none of these and are usually driven purely by sponsors which is (to me) clearly not the case here.

PS.
The above american flag image is good, btw. It sends a clear message but that message is not racist or anything – it is targeting a ‘type’ of person specifically those in authority (and in pockets!). The only worry I’d have is if GE or Macdonalds or CocaCola objected – they have copyright of those symbols. Personally, if I were them, I’d be happy with the free publicity though.

I totally understand where you are coming from Sjem and you echo my thinking. However, that fine line is a hard one to draw and ultimately will leave out some while including others. Is it better to have a broad line which is followed by all or a general one which is selected? I would hate to be the one choosing the broad.

RB’s House, RB’s rules.

LOL….....that would make a good slogan T

Are you folks for real?

Grab a decaffeinated coffee, a fresh packet of Tim-Tams or Oreos, and read this for an insight as to how modern Australia really operates.

We’re a bit different in Australia

A few years ago, before I saw the light or any other shining orifices, I used to work for the government in their advertising department (the pit). There is fine line between what is amusing and what isn’t to the general public. Fortunately, in Australia we have freedom of speech and thank goodness we do. But there is a fine line and RB is just trying to make sure that that line doesn’t detract from the overall ethos of the site. Ethos is governed by public support yes…......but so is commercialism.

What a sad day indeed this has become. Because of some whiners that are taking things wayyyyyyyyyyyyy too personal RB is going to be removing art, possibly tee shirts too ? thereby censoring artists. Artists will now be losing their right of expression to their art. Art is subjective. This whole issue has been blown out of proportion because of Bush supporters….their ‘God’ has been portrayed in a bad light in their eyes.
I say No ! No to this censorship. What a cop out…talk about caving in because some Americans are crying over a few pieces of art….Really sad, really tragic that we can no longer express ourselves through our art.
Has anyone objected to nipples yet ? a bare ass ? breasts ? what’s next ?
This will not stop here you know.
Can we write about Bush ? will that be the next censorship ?
Can we say penis or vagina ? How about shit ? damn ? asshole?
When enough people start bitching about a certain piece of art or literature are you people at redbubble going to silence them as well ?
Geeeeeeeee is it okay if we read ’ Catcher In The Rye’ ?

This is really disappointing that it has come to this.
The squeaky wheels ( Americans ) seem to get the attention.
I found nothing wrong whatsoever in anyone’s work here on redbubble that would make the powers that be cave in to remove their art.
Such a disgrace to see this happen.

Wednesday.

In my belief, art is art…

And as I commented on “imperialism”,

“Art allows to talk… good, bad… but talk… art is what I see here… Art brings people to a personal understanding, or an outlet for frustrations… some let it out by making it, others let it out by looking at it…”

“Your art is very explicit, and it is what it is … art…

The art to say it as it is… the art of showing how one views and envisage things… the art of expressing one self…

Art is Art… and there is nothing else to it…

This is a great work of expressive art… “

Although I understand that RedBubble does not wish to enter in a political shift, and respect that they are doing their best to deal with the community, I still believe that I have seen some pretty upsetting works here…

To me, art is a mean for expression, and this is what it was here.

I had to comment on it, for I think that it was well expressed. It is his view of the world he lives in, and I can share, or not, my view with his.

I have the freedom to choose to like it or not.

I have the right to agree or disagree…

and I took the opportunity to express myself.

But I will respect RedBubble’s decision, as they too respect my right to express myself… only wish this would not go away…

“Fortunately, in Australia we have freedom of speech” I must stop you there. You will discover that we in fact do not. In Australia your words can put you in gaol or land you with a law suit. Nothing against you, it’s a very common incorrect assumption.

But freedom of speech aside, as predicted, this has pushed a lot of people’s buttons

Are we suprised?

This is a rather difficult debate, I’ve been thinking about it all night. Freedom of expression is crucial, especially in the arts. however, for the sake of business the lines must be drawn and I think that drawing the line firmly at symbols is the right thing to do- whether it is a flag, a religious symbol or a book. book burnings and flag burnings are inflammatory and considered to be hate inspired (yes even harry potter book burnings!) and by that rationale defacing of objects that are revered by millions can create a discord and an undercurrent of hate in a community site like this that detracts from it’s main mission.

it’s been very hard to separate my personal feelings from this debate. I’m an American living in Australia and have put up with constant vilification as a result. I admit that I am sensitive to things like this because hatred towards America is so pronounced here. I do vote and I did not vote for Bush. I don’t agree with his policies or his methods and I don’t support his decisions. I think he is the worst thing to happen to America since his father. but, I don’t agree with tarring all Americans with his brush or generalized hatred for all Americans as a result. Luckily he is out next year and we can hope (and vote) for the best. I think the concern was breeding and feeding an undercurrent of hate and drawing the line here is important for the future.

and yes, I would feel that way about any symbol – whether is was one I believed in or not.

and Kate – I think your work is really cute, I don’t see it as defaming, but more anarchic, reactionary with multiple meanings – not necessarily hatred.

Reminds me of a quote “The test of democracy is freedom of criticism. ~David Ben-Gurion”. Unfortunately, Jo is right. Wise woman folks.

VOTE OBAMA 2008!

I as an American an proud to be living here.The Flag of the United States represents the nation as a whole.It is not a political party.It represents me directly.Im proud of what it stands for.I disagree with the Bush bashing but like Flamejob said he is not a symbol .I agree with the RB guidelines,you can’t bash a country an then expect people from there to buy from you.RB shouldn’t allow itself to be a venue for those wanting to make a political statement to the world.If your work is truly artistic sell it to some of the media of the country your bashing,or find some like thinking groups in that country to sell it to.As far as the so called Bush’s War have you based your beliefs on 1st hand knowledge from being in Iraq or Afghanistan or just what the press have made good storys of.

In this day and age Gary I dont think you need to be there to know that what is happening in those places is an unmitigated disaster.

Remember when Red Bubble was about the Art?
Sigh

Gary 22,626 soilders injured so far, look at the way their treated when they come back limbs missing, brain damge blind…....... 2,715 dead not counting iraq people, Do you think the press is making this up?

Jennie, well said. I fully support RBs stance on this. one can always make a website and express themselves in their own space. this is someone elses, respect their decisions.

Like with nudity etc… I see this as more of a selective issue… the audience of redbubble is a fairly general one… I choose not to be exposed to certain things and have found groups and forums a way to streamline the content I like to view …

Could this be about audience appropriateness?...

give people the correct forum to present ideas and the appropriate audience will follow..

that’s basic advertising…

now applying that to this situation…

if we allow all types of expression but everyone knows that that is what will happen in that group or whatever than the audience who like that will be expecting it and craving it…

the audience that is turned off by this type of expression will do one of 2. things… they will turn away and ignore or they will stand and argue… however the ‘argument’ of expression is now null in this situation because you came to the gallery knowing that was what was on show… i only draw the line in the general public case which is what this is and it is not fair, or humane, to say that someone’s offense isn’t valid cause one day you will be upset about something and no one will care and you will feel horrible …

you don’t go to puppetry of the penis expecting punch and judy… you don’t walk into a brothel expecting to see the sound of music… but they still have their audience, and their audience finds them…

If political and activist artists are given the right tools and communication channels to plan their shock then there would be a lessened reaction… all reaction would be public so that the argument could balance more and more perspectives for understanding would be on display….

Thanks RB for letting us participate in this version of democracy. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed and appreciated reading all the pros and cons (thanks everyone who’s had the courage to speak their minds). Like the artworks that started the discussion, the decision will be interpreted in many ways. I personally have more issue with the non-political violent images on this site, especially those also involving sexual titillation…. but that’s an issue for another day.

Once again, thanks RB for allowing us to participate in the running of your site.

Cheers.. and peace

I have been out of the office for a couple of hours and the debate goes on – which is great.

The point I would make is being anti-Bush, pro-Bush or indifferent-Bush (or Putin, Blair, Obama or Howard) is irrelevent. Make art on these subjects all you want and put it up on the Bub (if you think it is good enough) but being anti-Russian, anti-American, anti-Jewish, anti-Black or anti-Australian and conveying this through use of powerful symbols is a different matter. Even if it is not-intentional. We need to watch for the not-intentional and if you use meaningful symbols in way which promotes hate (rather than rational debate) that is when we will step in.

political and activist artists generally use shock and confrontational colours to get their message accross… it is the essence of the art itself…

I believe there is room for everyone on RB to express this type of ideology… but… as sjem said each case needs individual consideration… and there will always be a reaction one way or the other….. a few people were contacted by me a couple of weeks ago with all of this in mind…

We, activist artists (as with the dark arts, and as with the spiritual artists, and as with the tshirt artists… need a forum to operate in… one where we can talk about reaction and coordinate … I mean, if you truly are into making a social ‘statement’ then surely inviting collaboration and cross-promotion is a good way to make statements, even if you are individual in your own perspective…

also, the nature of customer service is that only the MOST offended will speak up… what this has shown is that there is more balance in ‘american’ thinking about the topic and perhaps that is what the nature of the art was trying to express…

there are extremities in all societies… but on a world platform… what common knowledge is there about where the extremes exist… it isn’t a nation it’s a bunch of rich dudes from all over…

I challenge Mick to do another piece now… do the same sentiment on the ‘enemy’... it takes two (at least) opposing sides to make war…

If you do something in Australia’s political climate that is anti moslem, I challenge you to present it with as much enthusiasm and shock…

of course Mick… I am a fan of his work… and he has been a great contributor to this community…

there are good witches and bad witches and the bad are the good to the good and the good are the bad to the bad… can’t hunt that… just like you can’t wage a war on a noun (i.e. terror)...

i think i stuffed that last paragraph up, i hope you got what I meant!

There was talk a while back about members possibly maybe having a private space on RedBubble that was somewhat detached from the main site, and therefore being a space to exhibit whatever you liked. Is this still on the cards?

I’d love to know the real statistics of the Iraq war, seeing as the numbers are determined by whether a person is shot in the front of the head, or the back of the head…

Pehpsi ,we will never know but as far as I Am concerned ,one death for this war was too many

AMEN to both Pilgrim and Darren.

I am not gonna say any more than that.

I have no problems with such photography on redbubble regardless of the flag and country portrayed, it is still an artistic expression for the most part something that provides a pro/anti sentiment for the viewers to decide upon. I do not regard such artistic expression as inflammatory, this is for the viewer to decide regardless of nationality or political/religious dissuasion, where I’m from I must choose carefully my destinations if I go north of the border because of my accent, even my car reg is a factor (fact), in this; time of peace and reconciliation!!!
Certain symbols (such as swastika) the only one to my knowledge are now illegal but references to groups/religions/events cannot be used out of context globally, the context being historical, to used e.g.quote “he’s hardly gassing Jews in chambers is he?” is not acceptable going by Redbubble guidelines but can be found in the forums.
Redbubble, if you are going to censor photographic/artistic content on this site you need also police the written word whether writings or forum content”
For what it’s worth do a search for the quote above the only answer given by google is the one in the forums!!
I gree with Snow Dog, I would be more critical of Mick’s execution of the photo than of it’s content.

Jo
Yes private groups is on the agenda. Martin

how crap.
it reminds me of the story of the Prophet’s caricature in a norwegian paper…

arghhh… disclaimer to make up for my shoddy written expression…. up there… way up there where I said “there are other ways to deal with this… there really are”, I meant I didn’t want anyone to get upset and argue about it… just try to think constructively (ha. that word again)... I wasn’t referring to RBs approach…

And if my group ideas aren’t approved then I don’t mind either… I accept and respect the decisions made from our hosts…. as always… and I guess I haven’t said this recently but I LOVE RB…

onward and upward!

Not that my opinion means squat but I think you guys are on the right track. Your site, your rules.

” Remember when Red Bubble was about the Art? “

Danny

Right on Danny!!! The most intelligent coment made on this thread!

Well now i’m in the mood for some Bill Maher.

Peace.

“Your site, your rules”

But our Art.

I’d really like to see the creator of these works comment on this. If he can do it calmly lol.

I wasn’t gonna write anymore here,but now feel compeled to do so.Susan an those talking real statistics,do you think then the world should of turned there back on the chemical bombing of Halabja.The Kurds deaths alone, that the leader of Iraq carried out genocide on, number in the 100,000 +.Thats just the Kurds of that nation.Do we forget them so fast.Those survivours are still suffering from those attacks with various cancers.War isn’t a good thing but then again turning your back on genocide isn’t either.
I’ll post no more here.

RB is only trying to keep heated discussions an images causing heart burn out of its site.That can never be a bad thing.They are in a business to sell art.They aren’t in a business of politics,or the business of trying to make a statement on free speech.Debates as this have gone on for years with no real outcome.Why should RB allow it to disrupt the community here and possible loose the business of those whose the hate attacks are geared at.

Hello Sasufi, I would not agree, the muslim religion does not have nor worships Effigies they use only the written word of the Koran, the original image appeared in a Danish paper not Norwegian (who are extremely politically correct). and to object was perfectly correct even if only a caricature. This is political, not religious, giving that most of the world is now democratic and secular to show a flag of a nation cannot be construed as being anti religious.
I am of the opinion that we need a new group on Redbubble aptly named “Political or Controversial” where such photos can be displayed. If Redbubble is a truly global site it should cater for all genres! Some of the world’s most memorable photos come from photographers/artists who have covered famine, war, discrimination, racism, poitics, exploitation or such topics!

Martin, so looking forward to the private bubble space…this is certainly an interesting and sensitive debate…i’m having trouble picking a side, so will therefore keep my opinions to myself, i think everyone has made a lot of valid ones…it does bring up the question though…”where does censorship start and end?”

Sorry Sara. My art stands for itself. Any comment from me only will cloud the issue. Art is a subjective experience, thus the appeal of art. It does not matter two hoots what I have to say , only what I feel I need to show.
Who am I? I bleed , I read, I think, I love, I work just like anyone else. Politics is my life blood. Its who I am.

Why are you apologizing to me? ???? Um, if you read my posts I’ve been defending your right to express yourself freely – lol, and you’ve just commented – doesn’t seem cloudy at all!

I have no problem with the two images and think Mick should be allowed to express his views,OOPS! i can here an upset America whining so i’ll be a good dog an run away with my tail between my legs.

In a strange way this would be less of an issue in the US, there artwork is protected under the freedom of speech act. Individual artworks have been taken to court ( only in the US ..) and have been set free to hang happily in galleries under the freedom of speech laws. Go figure.

I agree with Shay. There is room for bush-bashers and anti-australians or phobias about monkeys or whatever. Now that the owners of RB miraculiously have given us groups to gather – show your art in a room wtih those that might appreciate or understand it? I won’t go there; but that is ok. I won’t buy any art there any way.

Thank you Red Bubble Team for allowing us to discuss this as a democracy; but it is Your house-Your rules. Respect this fact or leave.

Bobbie… you got a good point there…
And I know that I am rambling… Like it or not but Art is Art… a way of expressing oneself… period.

Much Love all.

being English.. and I am probably a very open minded kinda bloke, personally I didn’t see any problems. with the Images.

however I am grateful for some specific guidelines.

RB: I applaud the openness and candor of your explination. I also disagree with the decision.
Any other comment I could make has already been made by others far more capable both here and in Mick’s journal.
When all is said and done, RB’s site, RB’s rules. I do hope RB will continue to be about the art.

Would it not help if we could have our works placed into cathegories… I mean if I gather all of my flowers together, all of my landscapes together, and all of my political photography/art together or just a political group of some sord… I think it would allow for a little more classification… and “warning” to the viewer…

Perhaps it would allow for a little more freedom.. as in free to get in, or free to not get into the group or place where such is posted…

Just a suggestion…

I don’t necessarily think the group approach should be private… the idea is to get the statement out there… but if there was explanation that this type of art existed in this ‘place’ the viewer has a choice… moreso… or can be guided to further understanding of the statement being made or even engage with the author in a non-confrontational, educational, idea swapping balanced happy loving hippy hippy joy joy way… or at best not exchange anything that can be construed as intolerant…

art is so personal, especially if the artist is not ourself… you try to jump into the mind that created it… the problem with that is that you can’t and if you assume wrong and then act on a wrong assumption then there can only be confrontation and squirmyness.

Why do that Alistair? Every country has it’s patriots – Definition “One who loves, supports, and defends one’s country” The question is are they right or have they that right to defend it , whether on the international or domestic front?
When it comes to USA/UK/FRANCE/RUSSIA/CHINA/BELGIUM even AUATRALIA and other “Colonialist/Imperialist” nations they are ripe for ridicule and satire, they have tried to implant their societal/political norms on so many other nations for their own gain.
I find it hard to defend such countries where they preach their doctrine of egalitarism, equality and democracy to the world but yet practise apartheid within it’s own borders examples of which are coming to the fro in a lot of these countries. I think these “Patriots” need to ensure that all is right at home before inflicting themselves upon a global stage.
Art and photography have been the main media in the last 150 years or so to express opinion or actuality and this should never be censored!

Mick, it was once said to me that “if your photo doesn’t get its message across a thousand word essay wont help it.” Your artwork has certainly proved it can deliver the message without your help, kudos for staying out of the debate.

On the whole censorship issue…sometimes it’s not so much about censorship as about covering one’s behind LEGALLY also.

I think people need to try to see this from all different viewpoints..it’s not a black or white issue. If you believe it is, then I feel you are really missing some of the points.

Oh the poor Americans…come on guys! What about all those poor countries of the past 100 years who have been propogandered (is that a word??) ...anyway….even now! People back in the day were having posters, bulletins, tv, radio, preaching and stomping on other leaders/countries of the world, cos they could…..and there are still stigma’s attached today!! Currently it’s the Muslims….back in the war’s it was the Japanese, or Vietnamese…..I still hear and see people today who believe in the misinformation and prejudice that was given/taught to them back then. And I’m sure there’s still MEMORABILIA still floating around gathering much money in the form of posters, other artwork etc, correct??? How much did the germans cop it in the war!!!! And this wasn’t the first time either!! Everyone thought they were ALL NAZIS!! Swastikas and other crap are still as popular today as they were back then….and yes it OFFENDS people.
So what makes what people are producing in art now ANY DIFFERENT to what was being produced back then??? The fact that there is actually some TRUTH involved this time round (not all of it!), and that people are WAY more educated and informed these days…or should be!!!
People should be loyal to their country of course! And generalising happens all the time. It just does.
I guess what I’m saying is this…..remember and learn from the past. Always question, think and fight for your right to express. Accept that not everyone has the same opinions. Be open to all ideas, and above all HAVE A LAUGH, take someone else’s point of view for a moment, relax and LOVE. PEACE OUT!!!
Art is controversial-if it wasn’t, who the hell would be INTERESTED???!!! :)

Shay

Here, I have an exemple of what I believe to be “ One who loves, supports, and defends one’s country ” Lieutnant Watada’s War Against The War he is American, and seems to love his country…

To read through the story, you simply click on the “view site” green button… I posted that link there on june 27th 2006… and people have left their comments there too…

But still… art is art… and what one might say through his/her art may not mean what the viewer will understand of it…

Perceptions are wht they are… and for as many people there are on this earth, for as many ways there are to understand our singular world… The artist was born to express his/her self through this art…

I am hearing a common theme among the comments on this thread. A complaint that freedom of speech and freedom of expression have been violated. I am sitting here wondering why it hasn’t occurred to many people that there is no true freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is always within social and legal constraints. This is true in Australia, in the Americas and Europe and true internationally as in the form of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination.

Your law: It is racial discrimination to treat someone less favourably because of his or her race, colour, descent, NATIONAL origin or ethnic origin than someone of a different ‘race’ would be treated in a similar situation.

And that is why I am sitting here amazed to see that so few people got the point that pilgrim was making. If you took the very same image that this discussion is about and replaced the American flag with the flag of Israel you would be dealing with a hate crime. It would be no less a hate crime than burning a cross on the lawn of a black man (KKK), or painting swastikas on doors of “undesirables”. So many of you are focusing on the flag. Its not the flag!!!! And I am so amazed to see that there is such a general misunderstanding about this and a very flippant attitude about racism. And before anyone says, hey, Americans aren’t a race, please read the definition of racism that I posted in the middle of this discussion and note that the word “National” is in your law, it is in our law and it is in the International Covenant.

Isn’t it a funny thing how people call others “morons” just because they don’t agree with a point of view?

Belinda, i agree art communicates. Mick communicated more than he probably thought he had originally with red paint. hachet and a flag!
Don’t you people sleep? Peace!

I get your drift Derid… YOu are good with presenting yourself… it is nice to read you …
you are calm and respectful… :)

Thanks for that … it always makes things easier to gather… :)

Thank you so much Rowan for posting my tee shirt. 4th one down hehehehe
I just found out minutes ago that someone bought it….Whoooooooo Hooooooo :)
many many thanks
Hugs
Wednesday :)

derid in light of the way Israel treats it’s neighbours I wouldn’t consider it inappropriate to replace the US flag with the flag of Israel in the first image. As an entirely political statement that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with war and oppression of their nearest neighbours. These images are not about Americans they about US policy. Burning a cross on the lawn of a black man is personal this is not personal, it’s a clear statement about policy and the politics of a particular government.

Learning from the past includes not condoning or celebrating racist or hateful propaganda, whether you agree with it or not it isn’t ok in any sense. the propaganda created during the cold war and the first and second world wars were very damaging socially and led to the propagation of hatred – we do need to learn from our mistakes and that means not attacking or hating on people purely because of their race, color, beliefs, sexuality or nationality.

we have a long way to go still, many stereotypes from propaganda are still assumed today and the damage they have created is very real. we need to practice more tolerance and learn to not generalize so much- and that is something we can learn from past mistakes.

Pick on the person- not their country/race/creed etc. Political opinion and reactionary art is crucial, but only when it is in context. in 50 years, if someone was to look at these pieces, would someone think ‘Bush was an awful president’? or would they think ‘America is evil’? what do you want your work to say? what do you want people to think? and what is more effective/damaging?

Well said indeed, Derid :)

Oh dear. I guess this source of action is understandable but, well, you know what’s going to happen now.

Unleash the “I’ll find anything and everything offensive if I can” brigade. Once you allow people to be offended due to things that have no rational reason behind them (religion and national pride being two very obvious examples) you totally lose any chance of saying that it’s about rational debate and taking action for rational reasons.

oops, that was to Belinda’s comment a bit further up, I type too slow!

Derid, I agree with you whole heartedly.

This is how I see it….Censorship starts where ever redbubble sees it. If you are an abstract artist you seek modern galleries to represent your art. You don’t walk into an established and successful American Indian gallery and tell them that their rules suck. You just find a place that suits you. Redbubble has every right to restrict and make rules. If you don’t like them… find another gallery.

If your position really is that freedom to express should have no boundaries then what would be said, for instance, if primetime network television had no censorship. Live killings, rapes, murder, pornography, would all be fair game. Some sociopaths would argue that watching children being sexually assaulted is, in their minds, a form of art. Would you take the same position if these types of images appeared on redbubble?

There is also something noble to say about the fact that despite their obvious turmoil in approaching us about this sensitive subject, they did it anyway. They didn’t just delete the work with no explanation. Give them a break folks. They are working their butts off to give us a place where we CAN express ourselves. If you don’t like it then maybe you should start your own site. It is after all, your right.

Well said Trisha

and well done RB – you guys rock :D

As much as myself and a lot of other people want peace/tolerance/understanding I just don’t think it’s not gonna happen. War makes too much money, and the richest countries in the world are led by f*cking evil, greedy, war mongering people….divide and conquer!!! They love it-it makes THEIR world go round. And THAT should upset you-not art. And if it does upset you LET OTHER PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT IT!!! Just like now! Cool! Now everyone take their bat and ball and go home…......

Having well established rules that people can clearly see when you sign up is one thing. Making rather drastic rules after people have signed up and removing people’s works based around some undefined notion of offence as perceived by some other person for some other undefined notion is bound to stir up feeling and solicit feedback. People aren’t just going to accept it without comment.

If RedBubble expected people to accept it without comment I’m sure they’d have done something to stop comments on this journal entry.

In other words: of course RedBubble of the rights you suggest Trisha, but the user base also have an implied right and a moral right to make comment and suggest a different course of action (or, of course, to show agreement).

Thank you Red Bubble for allowing everyone to weigh in on this.

I think we just seen a thunderstorm roll thru the valley of Red Bubble! I honor Red Bubble for not squashing it – even promoting it!
I agree with Trisha, Belinda and Derid and Shay.
IF Red bubble decides there is a need for a political or controversial “Groups” we can solve this debate. Red Bubble just needs to put cautions and disclaimers to protect THEIR firm.

Shouldn’t people be more upset of images of cruelty to animals, starving/begging people, violent bloody pics????? Get over the flag people…..and religion.

I agree that Red Bubble can’t set any rules they like and I’ll abide by them, I just wonder at the logistics of it. Dave made a valid point and I’d grant that every one of us has some art that we find offensive, it’s a slippery slope. There are folios on here that I just don’t visit because I don’t like the message in the artists work, I don’t go there and leave nasty comments, I don’t feel it’s a personal attack and get my knickers in a knot, when I come across them I click out it’s quite simple really, just one mouse click and all the bad stuff goes from my screen.

Red Bubble just needs to put cautions and disclaimers to protect THEIR firm.

And, of course, if you’re cynical enough you could note that doing it late on, and doing it such that images get removed, means there’s a far better chance of the story popping up all over the net, the story getting dugg lots and the company name getting better known (not to mention the chance of lots of extra visitors who’ve never been before).

But that’d be a really cynical view of marketing, right? ;-)

trisha, your poise is graceful… I agree sooo full on about what you have said so articulately…

censorship is necessary in a general environment, otherwise lets let every 2 year old utter the F word profusely, and… well all the point trisha made…

audience at least allows for extremeties within a structured safe environment… if there are content guidelines within the group itself any of the really offensive and sick stuff (how criminal can ‘art’ become?) can be identified fast and acted on or reported perhaps even to the authorities beyond RB if necessary…

it’s about net safety as well… and that effects everyone here… it’s just an extra guard against the criminally infirm really…

because just because you aren’t actively out there beating people up, doen’t mean you can watch someone else do it on a mobile phone recording or utube…

there has to be a level of social responsibility… but you know… a digital artpiece can’t kill you and you can’t have your basic needs and wants taken away by it either… if no one reacted to these pieces it would not have gotten so much attention…

hard to hold opinion in sometimes, don’t want people to get away with hurting us but sometimes inaction is the best action to draw attention to action… I think… well… this topic has killed my mind that’s for sure…

for the record… I was in the process of creating an image to challenge these ones… exactly the same in content but with australia in there instead…

cause this country licked up to the us government and gave them everything they asked for… I hate us US… but I like myself (too much for some ohh ho ho)... oh and a couple of others I guess… need more convincing…

don’t you think it’s odd that australia and america seemed to be always having presidential/prime ministerial elections at about the same time… it’s sick!

well said trisha.

Just like any other gallery, Redbubble has the right to make its own rules.

Trisha, very well said.

All this talk about freedom of speech, etc…When our four fathers wrote the bill of rights it was with some idea of responsibility… I guess the old saying is true, give a child an inch he will take a mile, and that is truly what is going on here in our world today. Unfortunately countrys have been giving all the screaming, tantrum, children and babies their way…and this is the road to pure choas.

..”we will not allow works that have malicious use of stereotypes intended to attack or demean a particular gender”? This from the guy that produced the ‘come fuck me’ series of Jo pix that reminded us of those dreadful girlie calendars that used to hang in garages in the 50’s?

The artist mick is making a statement. There is nothing offensive in the way he has expressed himself except that the owners of the site obviously do not agree with his point of view. America has blood on it’s flag, is militaristic and has slaughtered hundreds of thousands to feed it petroleum industry. That you think that can somehow be rationalised is a disgrace. that you would censor an alternative point of view is your shame. Hold the door, I’m joing the mass exodus out of here.

It’s a shame that RedBubble is in this position.

RedBubble said: “I keep coming back to their use of the American Flag to make their point. They could make the point without this symbol (and that would be fine).”

They could, but why should they? They may be as offensive to some as overt patriotism is to me, but it’s just flag, there is nothing to incite hatred or violence against another being in either of these images. Neither image uses real blood or animate objects, it is mere symbology.

Redbubble said: “And if we let people use the flag in this way, we have to let people use the Koran, Star of David, Bible in similar ways. And I just don’t think we can accept this, therefore we need to be consistent.”

So accept it all, I have no problem with any of that if it is an artistic expression. I realise this is ultimately a commercial decision that you have to make, but it cuts very bluntly against your own vision for creative expression.

If those works go offline, mine go off the market in protest, and I hope the more successful artists on here follow their hearts accordingly. There are laws already in place in the US and Australia that, in my humble and non-expert opinion, would allow these images to stand.

Good luck with it.

and for the record, dudes…
The Anglo-American attack on Afghanistan was about oil again, let’s be honest. America’s economic wars now mean the perpetual threat of military attack on any country, without legal pretence. The ultimate goal in Afghanistan was not the capture of a fanatic, which would be no more than a media circus, but the acceleration of western imperial power. It’s all outlined in a document written in 2000 which outlined in prophetic detail Washington’s grand strategy to dominate much of humanity and the world’s resources.

“The PNAC’s seminal 2000 report, Rebuilding America’s Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for A New Century, was a blueprint of US aims. It recommended an increase in arms-spending of US$48 billion so that Washington could “fight and win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars”. It said the US should develop “bunker-buster” nuclear weapons and make “star wars” a national priority. It said that, in the event of Bush taking power, Iraq should be a target.

Since September 11, 2001, Washington has established military bases at the gateways to all the major sources of fossil fuels, especially central Asia. The UNOCAL oil company is to build a pipeline across Afghanistan. Bush has scrapped the Kyoto Protocol on greenhouse gas emissions, the war crimes provisions of the International Criminal Court and the anti-ballistic missile treaty. He has said he will use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states “if necessary” and is developing new weapons of mass destruction that undermine international treaties on biological and chemical warfare.

In the Los Angeles Times, the military analyst William Arkin describes a secret army set up by Rumsfeld, similar to those run by Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger and which Congress outlawed. This “super-intelligence support activity” will bring together the “CIA and military covert action, information warfare and deception”. According to a classified document prepared for Rumsfeld, the new organisation, known by its Orwellian moniker as the Proactive Pre-emptive Operations Group, or P2OG, will provoke terrorist attacks which would then require “counter-attack” by the US on countries “harbouring the terrorists”.

In other words, innocent people will be killed by the US. This is reminiscent of Operation Northwoods, the plan put to President John Kennedy by his military chiefs for a phoney terrorist campaign — complete with bombings, hijackings, plane crashes and dead Americans — as justification for an invasion of Cuba. Kennedy rejected it. He was assassinated a few months later. Now Rumsfeld has resurrected Northwoods, but with resources undreamt of in 1963 and with no global rival to invite caution.
[From .]
now fuck off

P.S Thanks RedBubble for being responsible. I did see this as hatred not art, and you have the right as a gallery to say what is truly artistic. I agree pornography is not art either.

Where did anyone question RBs right of censorship? RB started this thread for discussion, and discussion was taking place. I don’t think there was any need to jump in with a very politely put “if you don’t like it then …..”

Makes me think of the couple who were making love in the bush….
“you’re very passionate, Myrtle”
“Passionate, Hell….. I’m lying on an anthill!!!”

You see, it depends on your position.

Trisha, I totally agree that RedBubble has the right to set it’s own boundaries. Unfortunately for RedBubble though, those boundaries were not there when most of us signed up. The “censorship” examples you use are mostly illegal acts anyway so aren’t really in the same category as the issue under discussion. This debate is about images that offend SOME people, but are not illegal in any way that I am aware of. I personally don’t condone defacement of flags or religious symbols in at all (despite the fact that I am not religious), but I do fly the flag for artistic expression within legal boundaries, whether that expression is offensive to me or otherwise. But I cannot and would not expect everyone else to feel the way I do about it. In the case of these images, I don’t believe they are inciting violence, and like many others, I see them as a cry against current American policy, not against the people or the country.

But having said that, I’m totally with you in respecting RedBubble’s debating over this issue, and I respect the environment that they are attempting to maintain. We are guests on this site and as such should abide by their decisions. I’m certain they do not make these decisions lightly. The problem is, how are they going to police the site forever and a day from now onwards. There are many, many written words on this site and other extremely violent images, that would certainly offend a whole heap of people, and in which people could place all sorts of interpretations (racial connotations, anti-this and anti-that connotations). How does one police things based on individuals’ perceptions? That is my question.

Roger
We completely agree with you that there are no laws in place which make this sort of expression illegal. And we completely support that. It is about whether RedBubble will accept imagery which uses symbols to be deeply offensive. We feel it is our job to promote rational and tolerate debate and this is not facilitated where the emotions have been provoked by desecration of symbols.

shayne, please understand if Clinton had done his job Bush wouldn’t have been put in this situation, and the un was a big part of this. America was attacked during Clinton administration and he did not do anything. Once attacked we have the right to retaliate, 9/11 may not have happened at all if Clinton had the balls to have done something when we were attacked in Africa, our ship, shall I go on. I can only try to put myself in Bush’s shoes when 9/11 happened, do any of us really think we could have done better. Everyone seems so upset over the war in Iraq, I guess when Iran blows us all up, that will be okey, and we should just stand by and let ourselves be destroyed. Check out History you can learn alot from it.

I think it’s necessary to have an opinion on this issue, so I’ll add mine. Everybody (I assume) as a threshold for what they would find acceptable on Redbubble. I think my threshold would allow me to accept (ie. without complaining, regardless of whether I subscribe to their view or find either or both images disturbing) both of the images cited. Whether I would post them is another matter. But since we’re all individuals, it stands to reason that the greater the membership of this site the greater the variation in thresholds.

While I am concerned at moves that would shift the guidelines so far to the “prudish” side that nothing at all could be created with any kind of serious or adult subject matter, I can see the concern that Redbubble would have if artworks pushing the boundaries too far resulted in loss of sales or worse. I accept their decision because this is their site.

That said, if Redbubble were considered to be “An Artistic Community with a Commercial shopfront”, rather than a “Commercial Site featuring a Thriving Artistic Community” then I would argue Redbubble’s actions are possibly heavy-handed.

However, I have no hesitation in being a member of either of the Communities I’ve described above, and I thank Redbubble for clarifying its stance, and hopefully we can all get back to our Art 8)

Shayne and others

I can absolutely and honestly say it has nothing to do with being pro or anti-American or the policies of the current administration. I happen to like America and Americans (I lived there for 4 years) but also joined the street marches against the Iraq war (I also lived for 5 years in the Middle East) and believe the current course of action there is wrong-headed, but this is irrelevent. What is relevent is consistency and not promoting hatred through desecration of symbols.

Your ignorance is breathtaking Charlene. You must be the last person in the world to still link Iraq with 9/11. They had nothing to do with it, no links to Al Quaeda, no weapons of mass destruction or any of the other lies the US came up with. They were slaughtered simply because Americans were baying for blood. Anyone’s. Having spent six months making sure Iraq could not retaliate, the US rained bombs on them for 3 weeks non-stop. Then the marines moved in and burned anything that moved. You may have not seen the photo evidence of what was done to those innocent people on Faux news. but it looked like this:
http://www.thefourreasons.org/victimsofwar.htm
Now don’t give me shit about the American flag being sacred.

How about a list of approved symbols to make the creative process easier to navigate?

Well said Pilgrim. If RB let artists express their hatred against a political regime or country which they don’t like it will upset a lot of people and it might put buyers or potential new members (and old members off. A lot of people don’t want to be associated with such a site.

There’s no desecration of the flag in the second image, unless wearing a flag is desecration…I’m just saying

Pilgrim, I respect your opinion about the desecration of symbols, but could you please clarify why Kate’s winning image (which I have no problems with, by the way) is perfectly acceptable while these two in question are not? Some members were extremely offended by her image. It was seen by them as a denegration of a nation, of their national symbol. I’d be interested to know your views on this.

Me too! Because I’m about to leave this place, not so much because of the censorship, mostly because of the inconsistency.

Kate…......please reconsider.

Seriously the abuse I had to put up with on and off the site over that image and then to have a fellow artists work removed for essentially the same thing? ...but my work be allowed to stay? I just feel embarassed over the whole thing.

Please don’t go Kate.

Kate you have nothing to be embarrassed about, you produced a fine artwork with a strong message, that some people don’t like the message is fine, not everyone will agree with your message, ya get that. Stand by your work it’s worthy.

I’m not embarassed of my work, I’m embarassed that another persons similar work is going to be removed while mine stays. It seems more than a little unfair.

Pilgrim says my work doesn’t desecrate the symbol of the American flag like Mick’s does, but I digitally dirtied and aged the flag to make it look filthy and worn. So I really don’t see the difference between Mick’s work and mine, therefore why mine stays and his goes.

It’s a bit like watching a TV show that you loathe (Californication), then complaining about it (Religious Types).

Solution: Don’t watch it.

Fair enough, the decision of who to piss off rests with you, certainly not an enviable task. :)

I still feel the responsibility for tolerant and rational debate rests with the participants, not the facilitators, and is of secondary importance to creative expression.

I think my own “work”: http://www.redbubble.com/people/sasufi/clothing/228117-3-sarkosy-deja-vu should be deleted as well. In this tee I am making my own president a new Hitler, a nazi, therefore a murderer. How much do I attack France ? How much french people care?

Well said, Roger! I have been watching this debate all day and trying to formulate a response but thankfully you have just said it for me far better than I could have. Thanks!

I think my own “work”:http://www.redbubble.com/people/sasufi/clothing/228117-3-sarkosy-deja-vu should be deleted as well. In this tee I am making my own president a new Hitler, a nazi, therefore a murderer. How much do I attack France ? How much french people care?

I have just read all the comments on this page and on the pages where the original images were posted and all I can say is whoa! I can see why some people are offended and I can see how some people are excited by it. Nobody is wrong here, and its great that such a great and meaningful disscussion can follow. The exchange of points of views actually clears the air and brings people closer.

But I’m cautious about censorship to be honest. If RB really intends to remove these images then maybe it could think about censorship in regard to a few other things. Personally and I stress that this is subjective and my own point of view…..I’m more offended by the neverending Torquinn and Antoine ministry of mediocity roadshow that for MONTHS now has endlessly hogged the community pages with bland white bread boring average snapshots of indeterminate quality that never seem to end.

Do something about breaking the strangehold of mediocity that has really lowered the quality of the site over the last few months. Or rename the What’s Hot to What’s Ordinary but popular.

Like Danny said ” remember when RB was about the art?”

Images like the ones under scrutiny are important in that they bring up hidden angst and RB’s extraordinary ability to host a mature and thoughtful forum which allows for all points of view to be heard and replyed to and discussed and dissected is unbelieveably tolerant and gererous in itself. Shows how tolerant and open the site is. I have really really enjoyed reading every single comment and I repeat ….Nobody is wrong in what they are thinking or feeling in regard to the way they read these two images. The artist should be congratulated on his courage to go a little way out from the pack and make a valid if controversial artwork and statement about the world as he sees it.

Phew! Well that my two bobs worth. :)

last chance…

I think my own “work”:http://www.redbubble.com/people/sasufi/clothing/228117-3-sarkosy-deja-vu/ should be deleted as well. In this tee I am making my own president a new Hitler, a nazi, therefore a murderer. How much do I attack France ? How much french people care?

I’ll agree that there are inconsistencies, I feel as though I’ve been saying that all day… but if RB is going to draw the line the guidelines need to be very clear where they’re drawn. I suspect/hope that there’s a corresponding debate going on at RB central. Really it has come down to …
Is social/political/religeous commentary valid as art?
Are these art forms acceptable on RB?
If so, what exactly is the cut off point? ie. can you dirty a flag in Photoshop but not with real dirt, can you use fake blood to depict a life lost but not many lives, can you desecrate the Australian flag because we don’t care but not the US flag because it’s “sacred” ...What?

Sasufi, I think if there were more french people on RedBubble they might care, but probably not :)

Kate, I believe you may have the most important point here, it is the inconsistancy of Redbubble’s policing/monitoring of the content both written and visual that is the core of the issue here.
Pilgrim, should not the glorification of such symbols be also censored for balance in both words and images??

I am sorry but this seems a silly arbitrary decision, even a little sinister. I think free speech is more important. Poor little America really needs defending by redbubble? No! I guess there are Americans who woud agree with me. Has RB been ‘hi’t by right wing activists? I accept that ther is an emotional impact to many Americans of their flag but personally many non-Americans find flag worship a little odd and perhaps we should all be encouraged to laugh at our hangups. Are there to be no images that might offend Muslims and so on (I guess it might be a small site!). Overt sex and violence or incitement OK there is a case sometimes for removal, but not abstract symbolism. The second image is simply ironic IMHO .

Just as a hypothetical scenario, trying to think of alternate symbols for the US. Do you think there would have been a similar backlash if it had been, say, the Statue of Liberty with an axe in her back, or pointing a gun at Iraq? What if it had been pictures of Bush? Is not part of the issue a muddling of nation with administration on the part of the artist? Perhaps the issue is not with the art per se, just with the choice of representation.

And please don’t go Kate! We love your work! :-D

Steve I am totally with you.
Kate, I think they would not care at all, because it is one opinion, shared by many, and they would respect that. They would not feel agressed or personnaly concern.

From what I know of most people from France, they are a fairly relxed people and wouldn’t let themselves get hung up over something so puerile.

Bobbie, Kate and Shay are addressing the most central point of this matter.

There now appears to be an undisclosed list of subjects, notions and things that are untouchable when it comes to them appearing in works that some people, some people, might personally decide are offensive (and often for reasons that can’t actually be rationalised).

Well, okay, that’s fine. So can we please have a list of these items? Can we also please have a list of situations in which they can’t be used? Can we please also be given a concise and rational explanation as to why Kate’s images were acceptable (despite some people deciding to take offence) yet the images highlighted as problematic in this post are scheduled for removal.

Can we also do this without people using fallacious arguments such as the slippery slope and guilt by association arguments I’ve seen earlier on (I mean, really, does anyone really think that bringing sexually violent images where the depicted victim really is a victim of sexual violence into the debate is equivalent to wondering about how some coloured cloth can be used?)?

Also, to the person who spoke about their “four fathers”(sic) and the bill of rights they apparently wrote: keep in mind that not everyone on this site can claim descent from those same four men. ;-)

Shay I completely agree!

I personally don’t have a problem with pro or anti political images, although I’m a tad sick of seeing Mr B plastered all over the internet (plus being Australian, I really don’t give a fig about US politics)

I wouldn’t like to see any graphic violence or full on porn. It wouldn’t bother me too much (I’m thick skinned), but I don’t like the idea of kids chancing upon it. It would give this fabulous place a bad rep and open us to the possiblity of being banned by the cyber nanny type software.

Different people react to different political, racial, national symbols, and no matter what you do, there will always be someone who complains about it. It’s a virtual minefield that we all walk through. You’re doing a great job so far though :D

I dont think anyone questions the right of RB to make this decision, I just find their reasoning to be absolutely bogus. They are trying to play it both ways. You cannot make commercial decisions on censorship while trying to maintain your “art cred” and paying lip service to the freedom of artistic expression. The inconstancies pointed out already are marked, and require increasing ridiculous, nuanced arguments to justify.

Just man up and say you made this call because of the outcry it evoked. Just say RB reserves the right to remove any art that may hurt it’s bottom line. Pieces that generate sufficient offence will be removed. Spare us the BS.

Juilee, I once tried to say something about that and guess what happened. Bout the same as what’s happening here. Same cast, same conclusion.

Crap, this is a long thread, I’m going to cheat a paraphrase what I’ve written elsewhere about this:

One thing that really strikes me is the significant offence that a lot of people have taken to this image and comments about it contrary to their own beliefs. It seems that most of the people offended claim they are expressing their right to freedom of speech, WELL SO ARE THE PEOPLE WITH OPPOSITE VIEWS. A quote often attributed mistakenly to Voltaire (actually from Evelyn Beatrice Hall) I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it applies here. Bear in mind that freedom of speech means being offended, and listening to things you don’t want to hear. Making personal attacks on the person who says those things shows a lack of ability to truly grasp the concept ‘freedom of speech’. Nationalism , and an over sensitivity or identification with what is essentially and abstract and arbitrary concept displays the kind of fanaticism that causes all the problems in the world. Identify with your humanity – not your leaders, not your political system, and not the piece of dirt you live on. Real values are not tied to any of these things, they are universal and found inside your heart and mind.

And to add:
I believe wholeheartedly in freedom of speech, but there are unfortunate practical considerations that need to moderate it. A number of philosophers (Locke, Hobbes, Rouss)eau proposed the idea of the social contract, and that is that we give up some rights to a government to receive some form of social order. It is in our rational self interest to submit to some of these rules to maintain a form of social cohesiveness. Ultimately that is what the management here have done. Looked at objectively they really have no choice, but the fact that they have allowed this debate and discussion to occur to me indicates that freedom of expression is tolerated here and that we are able to air these issues. At least we’re learning a little bit about ourselves in the process.

BTW, that’s my moderate opinion. I don’t always sign contracts and neither should anyone without reading the fine print first…

Hey Steve I know I know. Controvesy never hurts the bottom line in the end but if the ministry of mediocrity continues then all the really interesting artists will eventually zone out from frustration and boredom and eventually leave which in the long run will hurt the bottom line a lot more than a little bit of healthy biffo on the deeper meaning and role of what art is.

my pen is out of ink.

Wow…

I don’t have any particular problems with the images – I do see them as political statements, and don’t consider them as condoning violence or racism at all.

I also don’t see how you can compare a flag to a religious symbol – a flag is not the same as a bible or the qur’an. To christians the bible isn’t a symbol, it’s the word of God (from what I know of the qur’an, which isn’t much, islamists feel the same) – a flag (any flag) is a representation of….what? Different things to different countries I suspect – to Americans, freedom, maybe? (Sorry, I’ll admit to really not knowing all there is to know about this). To me, the Canadian flag simply is our flag – doesn’t really mean much more to me than it represents out country. It’s just a hunk of material.

That being said, as a business person, I also know that any site that allows sales of artwork, is in it to earn a profit and must therefore be run as a business. As a business, they have every right to censor whatever they like. If you work in a place of business (a factory, an office, a store or shop) you follow their rules, or you get fired. If I were running an art gallery, I’d be choosing what to turn away and what to offer for sale – it’s a matter of representation and reputation.

Currently, redbubble doesn’t charge it’s artists for space to host their work. When you start paying for your gallery up front (like having your own domain) you have more say in what you post.

I personally would rather not see any nudity on sites like this, but I have no issue with it being sold here; I just wouldn’t make it or sell it myself.

In the end, I am not sure the fact that debate seems evenly divided will make much difference – RB has made a business decision and you either will live with it, or you’ll leave the site, but even if half the artists left the site, it probably would not have significant impact on a decision like that. Maybe they wouldn’t like seeing it happen, but there are millions of artists out there.

Kate, please don’t go because of this issue, and don’t feel embarrassed because your image was a winner and is allowed to stay. You have nothing to feel guilty or bad about. The decision to remove the other two images is RedBubble’s. And by leaving your image up, you are still able to get your message out there loud and clear. While I personally don’t agree with desecrating a national symbol, I am all for freedom of expression and don’t expect everyone else to hold my views on this matter. Anyway, it is the political statement and your choice of expression that is important, not whether I or anybody else likes the idea of destroying a flag or not. So stick around and cast some more excellent art in our direction.

Gracey, to some, the flag is their bible.

RedBubble’s decision to censor works of political criticism that feature the US flag is to be strongly deplored. The works criticised the policies of the US as promulgated by their president and in no way insinuated that any other individuals were to blame.

I am unwilling to continue to contribute to an online community that bows to the lowest common denominator and folds at the first whinge from narrow-minded bigots. Redbubble directly profits from the development of community – but if it cannot be trusted to uphold reasonable freedom of expression then it should not profit from the creativity of those it will not support.

When Mick’s work is removed, I will be removing my own. I ask everyone of good faith and belief in freedom of expression to do the same.

It’s a tough call, and, from a British standpoint I found “Imperialism” to be razor sharp satire, while “Bush’s America” I can understand it being offensive to some. But, if RB must have guidelines, and I think it must, then obviously, some artistic expression will be excluded. However, this does not preclude any artist who wishes to continue to use their art in a provocative, and to some, offensive, way, from running their own website to do so.

As an inclusive online community, RB are, I believe, making the right decision.

How about we form a freedom of expression, no mediocrity, group? Any takers? But – do groups really work?
By the way – well said Chris.

Incognita, you seem full of life for someone 110 years of age. :)

another reason we have war is being displayed here, humans get a thill out of fighting, being ‘right’ and getting the last word… strange because its no where near as entertaining as some of the game threads goin on… * gets bored of this page and goes back to playing those games*

Well i’ve seen this beast of a thread grow all day.

I think the two pics in question should stay. If they do go, then Kate’s pic and others’ similar works should follow suit just to be fair.

But at the end of the day, it’s still RBs decision to make.

photogenique if being an inclusive online community means only the ordinary white bread dead in the middle lets all tip toe around whispering to each other with no highs and lows centre then count me out. I’d rather have all the glorious highs and lows of real life even if it means occasionally being offended or even risking giving offence than being stuck in the middle with the polite dull and boring masses. ( god bless their little cotton socks)

We are all diffenent and all think different things and thats GREAT! viva la difference and all of that. There has to be room for difference and debate, its what makes the world go around.

Also, funniest line for today goes to:

“when 9/11 happened, do any of us really think we could have done better.”

We sure as fuck couldn’t have done any worse than George ‘mission accomplished’ Bush.

Couldn’t agree more, Juilee. I was once depressed and tried antidepressants. They sure stopped the lows, but they stopped the highs too. It was just …. nothing, which was worse than depression. I hope RB doesn’t become an internet antidepressant. It may suit the prosac generation, but personally, I want more out of life.

Kate
I don’t believe we are being inconsistent. The US flag in your image flys behind an ambiguous image (whether it is deliberately ambiguous I don’t know). Where a symbol is desecrated or the net impact is to promote hate and violence this is different. The second of Mike’s images is more line-ball but its juxtoposition with a violent sentiment and its part in a series where a flag is smeared with blood and has an ax through it, does make it different in our view.

Inconsistency and hypocrisy would come if we were to allow these images to stand and then remove images (which will come) which involved, for example, a pig urinating on a Koran or a swastika juxtoposed with a Star of David.

Each one of these are and will be difficult decisions at the margin. We will try and err on the side of freedom of expression and images like yours which use symbols and are provocative and offend others, but do not step over the line we are trying to draw, will have a place. They may even win awards ;-).

i have to say that it is becoming ever more apparent that red bubble is about making money – & not alienating american purchasers – and less about art. i’m no artist but i can recognise the stink of censorship which reeks all the more when motivated by monetary aims.

wouldn’t it be easier to just personally ask the person to remove them !!

It is clear from of the nature of this debate that there will be some people & some groups of people, who will be happy with Red Bubbles decision, just as there will be groups of people who will be very unhappy….

I do not envy those at RB who find themselves needing to make this decision….but is it their commercial site & we can presume that they also have a vision of the direction they wish this site to take. That decision is theirs to make & if people & groups of people like it, they will stay & share their work, if people don’t like it, I am sure they will leave and take their work elsewhere, which will be our loss, as a lot of that work is bloody good!

The comments that have been raging around these & other photographs have at times got down right nasty, which was bound to happen as people are going to have very different opinions on these subjects……and it leaves me with a sad feeling when I read these nasty comments, but it is my CHOICE to read them, nobody has forced me to.

I will personally be saddened to see these works removed…..saddened to see someone’s freedom of artistic expression stifled. There are people on this site whose views I do not agree with, but that’s OK, I do not have to read those views.

There are photographs on this site that I personally find offensive….There is an extremely popular photograph that I find offensive & painful to view….it depicts a woman who appears to be dead & her breast is showing. This image gives the impression of someone being raped & murdered…The sense of violence is palpable, and speaking from personal experience I have no doubt that it offends many people who have been molested or raped. Now, I have friends who LOVE this image & that is fine by me, I am not going to leave abusive comments on the image, nor request it to be removed…I just won’t look at it….simple. I respect the fact that others will not perceive this image the way I do & I RESPECT their RIGHT to look at it if they so choose.

I also respect Red bubbles right to run this site as they choose, but I wonder where this censorship will end…. If the flag images depicting violence are to be removed, should not the image I have described also be removed, or is it due to the fact that people who have been molested or raped don’t fly a flag or have a ‘symbol’, that is this image is acceptable? Where is the line be drawn?

I would personally rather be offended by a piece of art or peoples comments than see anyone’s artistic expression stifled.

Having been around some in the sales arena I think you’ll find there are not many places that don’t have some sort of censorship on what is allowed – whether it’s considered art or not. If you want total freedom for your art, open your own site.

Where a site like this is concerned, it is the site and it’s administration who must decide what is best because the representation of people here are from all walks of life.

I joined this site to sell my work, not simply to show it, so when RB makes a decision (even one I may not agree with) I have to assume that they do so for the good of the site as a whole.

@Pilgrim: We’re told that “The general statement is that we will not allow works that have malicious use of stereotypes intended to attack or demean a particular gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or nationality.“

So how are we actually supposed to work out where the lines in each case are drawn? I’ve seen images on this site that, if I were so inclined, could be taken to be demeaning to women and stereotype women in a negative way. I’ve also seen lots of works on here that celebrate a particular religion and, if I were so inclined, I could see such celebration as an attempt to demean those of a different religion or those free of religion. And so it goes on. For every thing listed there I can imagine that it’s very easy to find works on RedBubble that could, if one were inclined to be offended to the point of wanting to lash out and have a work removed, fall on the wrong side of this “line”.

How do we find out where this line is and how wide it is? How do we find out how much wriggle-room there is for this line?

When can I start to make RedBubble in my own image by being offended by images that I personally think demean or stereotype me or someone else I care about?

(Of course I don’t want to do the latter, I know not to go back and look at images I dislike and I also know that the sorts of images that I would be outraged at are probably illegal in most civilised societies anyway—I seek only to illustrate that this action as created more confusion and has created a mandate for the easily offended, I don’t think it’s cleared things up at all)

Leeo, you’ve expressed yourself so well here. I agree with you wholeheartedly on every point you make. I’m feeling really depressed about this issue. While those images are not to my personal taste, I’m concerned that artistic freedom of expression is being censored.

Perfectly put Gracey…I had works deleted…. big deal i moved on without fanfare….. im as easy going as anybody and agree with Micks statements in someway…most of us dislike the American goverments stance in Iraq and other issues but defacing a flag is below the belt…...If we saw a middle eastern gent torching an Aussie flag in the heart of Melbourne would you say to everyone around…”leave him alone, he expressing his opinion”.... I dont think so….lets remember the unfortunate seens in Cronulla…..That was a real black day in Australias history…. lets just create without hate….wow im a poet a didnt know it… Let RB make the desicions it has to and move on…

hell yeah ya couldnt do that to a aussie flag no way

@TheFatman: It’s interesting that you say that you’ve had works removed without fanfare. Makes you wonder why these impending removals (which are no longer linked to from the main article, that’s a recent edit) have been given a fanfare by the company… Why single out two particular images and one particular user of the site?

Dave
Works (not sure about Fatman’s) have been removed because of issues of copyright, pornography or vilification. We wanted to highlight these particular works because the issues are more complicated and more difficult and we have had a lot of debate about this inside RB and with the community.

Pilgrim, thanks for clearing that up. This was starting to look more and more inconsistent after what TF said.

@Dave – this was a very difficult decision for us – so we wanted to share our thinking on the topic. We don’t take any of these decisions lightly – and this decision represents an important clarification of how we will approach similar situations in the future.

well, i was out and took ages to catch up…

so though… to everyone without a redbubble… aside from all of the opinions… what is the way forward as a cohesive community?

Do we all just spit the dummy and walk away and say ‘well that wasn’t what I thought it would be?”

There has to be another alternative to this… a cleverer approach…

This is a war that is political just like everything else microscopic and macrocasmic…

I still am an advocate for a directed to a community directed and intelligent movement towards a more lateral creative process.

Or do you all just like the bees stings? Because I can tell you the energy levels in here are through the roof and you could cut the text with a knife…

Wouldn’t it be a golden hippy moment if everyone here who has commented just sat back and laughed now… it’s all perspective… we either create a situation which is similar to social anarchy for the ‘hell’ of it or we pick up our brains and be mature… I don’t know… all I can say is I felt this coming months ago…

Redbubble are always open… and that’s the best thing about the way they conduct business… they don’t have to be… in fact they could take their money a p**s off tomorrow…

then how could we feed!

i should read before clicking [der]... that hopefully is coherent!

To be clear on how we would apply the guidelines outlined above, another image has been uploaded that we think is okay. This new image makes a commentary on religious fundamentalism – it makes that point that religious fundamentalism can be cloaked in patriotism and involve violence. No gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or nationality has been attacked – rather the general issue of religious fundamentalism is addressed. We are okay with this image being displayed on RedBubble.

Yep, clear as mud.

Ah well … I tried.

Cut the fucking hippies down to size…

Which part of the image clearly says “fundamentalism” rather than Christians, or American Christians, or….

I’m with betelnut on this. It’s as clear as mud.

While I really appreciate that this must be very tricky I think RB have called this one wrong. This isn’t an “important clarification”. This has opened up Pandora’s Box.

I don’t envy the position that RB are in, I don’t envy your position Peter, but I can’t help but think that this post has created terrible confusion.

I feel that this site should be about art.Because we are a VERY diverse community,we have different customs,religions,political views etc.
If you are against a country,a religion,idea,way of life, then there are other venues and forums,to make those statements.
The Bubble should be about having fun with your medium,it is after all a family site
and as such should be kept that way.

David.

The commentary beside the image reads:

“A sociocultural phenomena with its roots deep in puritanism. Now a force to be reckoned with world wide. After reading about how they are unhappy with the Republican’s stance on abortion and aim to stand a candidate in the upcoming Presidential election, I wondered how this would end.

Religous fundamentalism worldwide is killing and maiming as usual, all in the name of God.”

Sorry, no offence meant Peter, I reckon you guys do a fantastic job generally.

But this precedent and guidelines offer no direction whatsover.

Image 1 (not allowed) – Flag, Axe and Blood
Image 2 (not allowed) – Flag, Gun and Globe
Image 3 (allowed) – Flag, Gun, Cross and Jason Mask

It’s like a logic puzzle.

I think the bits of this image which make it clear that it is about religious fundamentalists are – the cross, the words “In God we Trust” and the title “The Relgious Right”.

Peter, you’ve left the impression, at leat with me, that you have bowed to pressure and gone against your principles. Not a great look!

Wich God?

@Dave – We’re right on the ‘content border’ with these images – on this border subtle differences in the images (or perhaps the description) will sway our thinking one way or the other.

And you don’t think the religious fundamentalists will take it personally? I mean the first one is called “Bush’s America” which I thought made it pretty clear that it was a statement about the current administration.

I think what this proves is that each upload will be assessed on case-by-case basis. Conisistency and clarification therefore are not really possible.

So Peter are you saying that political/social commentary artworks need more comprehensive artist statements about their intent?

ie – this is a tough call.

@Peter and @Pilgrim I hate to labour the point, but don’t you see how this gets further and further into a confusing situation where the guidelines, as posted, don’t really work? So we take the commentary of the image and work with that or, as Pilgrim does, we take the key props of the image and work with them. Okay, let’s….

Only, doesn’t that then follow that the last image falls foul of the “stereotype rule”? Isn’t that simply creating a stereotype of a Christian fundamentalist? Isn’t it also suggesting to some viewers that someone who thinks the cross is an important symbol, who thinks the US flag is an important symbol and who owns a gun is a Christian fundamentalist?

Moreover, why is it okay to attack religious fundamentalists but not, say, those who support a particular administration in a particular country?

Like someone else says above, it really is a bit of a logic puzzle. I know you guys mean well and I know that it’s pretty much impossible to actually create a code that describes what is and isn’t acceptable. But now you appear to be saying that it’s okay to attack some people but not others.

I find the allowed image more offensive than the other two – BUT only because it has the appearance of making a mockery of my belief – that however is a PERSONAL feeling, and in order to view it objectively one would have to toss out their personal feelings, which is very difficult for us to do.

I believe that art, in any form, sets out to provoke emotion, thought, and feeling. Personally, I prefer not to view violent images – and a change is a keystroke away – as would be changing the channel on the TV. I am afraid also that the world is entering a stage whereby extremes are coming to the fore, and too much exposure breeds apathy and acceptance as the norm – when perhaps it should not be allowed to become so. In a field of daisies, a blood red poppy will shine – so is the question posed because these are different to what we normally view? If so, then the images perhaps should stay. If they have been put there to provoke upset and hatred – then they should be removed. What they have done, is been effective in raising emotion, and therefore, perhaps should be considered good as art forms. However, I am of the opinion, as many are within RB, that the “niceness” (horrible word in this context) of RB should be maintained, and that perhaps, on this occassion, RB is not a suitable forum for their inclusion. That aside, RB should not turn into the nanny state either!

That’s one reason it wouldn’t be good for the masses to decide what stays and what goes. I wouldn’t want to have to be one who decides the rules.

Bobbie – I think where an image has the potential to be misunderstood I think it can be useful to clarify the intent – and when looking at an image we try to take into consideration this broader context.

Religion is, and always will be a touchy topic, so I understand if that comes under scrutiny, but as far as I’m concerned political administrations are fair game..

Thank you RB

Thanks Peter that makes sense, I’m still generally confused but that’s one thing cleared up. :D

@peter: When considering the three images in question, do you also consider that they seem to be part of a series and that they all appear to have the same motivation behind them? Do you also take into account that, for example, Gracey is more offended by the one you think is acceptable?

I have to agree with Dave on this. I actually think the allowed one to be pretty full on. You need to be consistent, They are all allowed or all disallowed. It is a series and it is consistent. The last one is a doozy and its aimed fair and square at our American friends who will all be waking up fairly soon. It will be interesting to see an american reaction to this decision to keep the one of the american phyco with cross and mask while booting the other two off.

@Dave – we do try to look at the bigger picture. In my mind the latest image does not attack or demean a gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or nationality. It makes a comment about fundamentalist religion – which could also be interpreted as fundamentalist Christianity. If we interpret the image as referring to fundamentalist Christianity then I still think the image does not fail the guidelines – fundamentalist Christianity is not a religion. It’s a way of thinking or a particular movement that exists within the broader Christian Church.

David: I think you’ve missed a couple of key terms in the sentence you quoted – namely ‘malicious’ and ‘intended’ – the stereotyping of women that I’ve seen doesn’t appear to be intentionally demeaning, and the religious pieces aren’t malicious, afaik.

Thanks RB.

holy fukn molley hope no one got offended at that!!

Jonathan, I’ve not missed those terms. Understanding those terms is key to this. “Malicious” and “intended” speak of someone’s motives and understanding someone’s motives can be tricky, if not impossible.

Also, this thread relates to the reaction that can be invoked by a particular image. A reaction can often mean that someone has decided a motive that isn’t really there.

@Peter: So what we’re really looking at, when it comes to religion, is rule that says particular religious are out of bounds but approaches to religion are fair game? I wouldn’t be able to depict something negative about Christianity in general but it’d be fine if I went after evangelists?

No, it’s okay, I don’t expect you to answer that and I hope nobody reads that as an actual challenge. There’s no simple answer to that question, and that’s my point. The more you try and refine this rule the more you find yourself in a maze of twisty little paths, all alike…

Horrible, isn’t it?

Bugger Peter. I have been reading this all day and I’ve been dettermined not to comment. But I’m afrad you’ve lost me by allowing the third image. Yep I’m a Christian. No I’m not a fundementalist Christian. In fact I am far far from it. I would describe myself as liberal as anyone who knows me would bear testimony too. But taking a cross and mixing it with images of violence? No. That is outrageously offensive. I agree religious fundementalism is an absolute unmitigated disaster-Chritian, Isalm, Judaism whatever. Bu taling a sacred Christian symbol and mixing it with violent imagery/ messages/ inference. Nup. It offends me personally. My opinion. Just had to voice it.

Wish I had managed to voice it without quite so many spelling mistakes though…

Thank you Redbubble for letting the community express their opinion on this subject… This is what makes Redbubble such a great site… We as the Redbubble community are given the opportunity to express our opinion where as on similar sites we are treated merely as ‘Click-Throughs’ and our voices would not be heard. The amount of enjoyment I get from this site far out weighs the feeling I get when a piece of art challenges me. Although not everyone can be pleased with Redbubble’s decision on this subject I can have faith in them to make what they believe is the best outcome for the art itself. I think some of you are pushing the guideline issue for the sake of ‘pushing the guideline issue’ when clearly by looking at the beautiful imagery in your portfolios you are in no danger of uploading content that is crosses the line. The nature of this subject is difficult because we are talking about art.. there are no set guidelines in art.. as there are no straight lines in nature… It would be a pretty boring world if that was the case.

No doubt Lindsay. You are right. It’s a great place to be and it’s all getting laughably serious. My only issue is that in my opinion you can’t say it’s not ok to use a nations flag in a negative wy but it is ok to use a religious icon in a negative way. That makes absolutely no sense to me at all. But it does make sense to someone at RB and ultimately it’s their call. The good thing is I have had my chance to have my say. And that makes me feel heard. So now even though I don’t agree with the umpires decision I accept it. ‘Cos that’s the way it goes. We agree to disagree and that’s cool. It really is simple people. Have your say. Accept the umpires decision and move on.

I write and delete and write and delete. It’s such a hairy topic but so very, very important. For me it all comes down to the controversy over Andres Serrano’s Pist Christ (or Piss Christ). I am not christian, even so I found the work deeply offensive. I believe it all comes down to this – as Wiki says, quoting “Arts and Opinion” – a clash between the interests of artists in freedom of expression on the one hand, and the hurt such works may cause to a section of the community on the other.”

Many of us live in countries where we have the luxury of vast freedoms. That doesn’t automatically mean we should be borish, artistically. A little decorum and regard for others go a long way.

Well said Melinda. You should be able to use both in a negative way.

...or you shouldn’t be allowed to do anything in a negative way. There’s nothing rationally special about a religious or national symbol and if you start to make some things special they you’ve got to accept all claims that thing X is special to person Y.

David – our guidelines aren’t necessarily about negativity – and I think there will still be images on RedBubble that will cause offense to some people (e.g. images of breasts or of poverty or of the aftermath of war). What has been written above is that we draw the line at “malicious use of stereotypes intended to attack or demean a particular gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or nationality.”

gee guys give pilgrim and peter a break will you!

here here Peter…and I echo many of Chris’ sentiments – my ink though ‘stops to think’.....and pilgrim is also fair in what he is saying as far as I am concerned.
If only I could find the bit I wrote about this topic (somewhere on the RB site ..I would cut and paste it…) anybody read it elsewhere? Please re-direct me to it!

suzanne

Pater, I assume you’re talking to me there. I get confused when people call me David. Only my other ever did that, and only when I was in trouble.

Perhaps that’s the impact you were going for? ;-)

Yes, I understand and appreciate all of that, and that’s why I find the verdict on the third image all the more confusing because it seems to stereotype American conservative Christian evangelists and do so while possibly attacking them.

Perhaps this thread would have made more sense if it hadn’t picked on two very particular images from one particular artist?

Sorry Dave.

I just came across this article:

History of censorship in art
History of censorship in art: For an absolute ruler to stay in power, he must have total control over his people. In order to accomplish this, he must control the art produced in his nation.

The power of an absolute ruler lies in his ability to control public expression in a way that is favorable to his rule. If a ruler attempts to rule his people absolutely without controlling expression, not only will the government be weak, but also he puts himself in danger of being viewed as something less than a powerful dictator. While not often viewed as a form of media, art in pre-television Europe was a powerful medium through which a ruler could exert control over his people. Often, art is simply viewed as paintings or sculpture, but, on a broader scale, art is also literature and music. The combination of all four of these things must be regulated by the ruler if he wishes to rule absolutely.

There is a historical precedent and a practical reason for an absolute ruler controlling art in his nation. In ancient Rome, the Emperor Augustus kept a tight noose around the necks of the artists in the Empire. One of the great Roman works, Virgil’s Aeneid, is viewed by many as political propaganda for Augustus. Likewise, after Ovid published his Ars Amatoria, he was banished from Rome and forced to live Dacia, away from his wife and children who remained in Rome. Practically, if an absolute ruler is unable to control what his subjects read and see, then he is unable to keep them in line. It is for this reason that, in most situations, absolute dictatorships do not work. It is very hard, if not impossible, to control all forms of expression and repress all rebellious thoughts, and without this ultimate control, an absolute ruler can never truly rule absolutely.

The power of an absolute ruler lies solely in his ability to make people believe that he is the best person for the position. Without his people believing that he deserves that spot (historically this has been justified by a great military conquest, divine right, etc.), it is not possible for him to govern his country effectively. Even after he gets his people in line, the ruler must still manage the country militarily, financially, and do everything that needs to be done in order to keep the country running. In order to be an effective absolute ruler, he must control his people first, and only by controlling art, which is the main avenue for expression at that time, can he accomplish this goal.

Dave – I still stand by what I said – bubblemails aside!

WMHaywwod I like it!

Thanks Bobbie :)

also I found this :

The Case: Aubin v. City of Chicago (unpublished opinion)

In February 1989, Dread Scott, then known as Scott Tyler and a student at the Chicago Institute of Art, displayed his work What is the Proper Way to Display a Flag? as part of a student exhibition at the Institute. The work included an American flag laid out on the floor. Mounted on the wall directly above the flag were a photograph of various images of American flags and a shelf holding a book in which visitors were invited to record their thoughts about the display. In order to do so, however, they had to step on the flag. The work immediately provoked daily protests outside the Institute and Chicago’s City Council soon passed a local ordinance banning flag desecration. In September, the ACLU wrote city officials on behalf of ten artists, including Tyler, asserting the ordinance was unconstitutional and asking if the city intended to enforce it. In response to the letter, the City filed a lawsuit in Circuit County Court against the artists, asking that the ordinance be declared constitutional. In November, Judge Kenneth L. Gillis ruled that the ordinance could not be used to prosecute artists who incorporate American flags in their works because “when the flag is displayed in a way to convey ideas, such display is protected by the First Amendment.” Judge Gillis went on to state, “[f]or every artist who paints our flag into a corner, there are others who can paint it flying high.”

I agree with the decision by RedBubble with the key point being emphasized in one of Peter’s comments above…. we draw the line at “malicious use of stereotypes intended to attack or demean a particular gender, sexual orientation, race, religion, or nationality.”

For those anti-american hating redbubblers who agree with these images.. I am sorry to hear you hate my country. I love my country and proud to be an American! Hate us if you want too.. Love us if you can!

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Boretti I have read all of this debate and participated more than my fair share and I don’t remember seeing anyone declare a hatred for Americans, perhaps you could help me out with a quote.

Another nice one Wednesday.

Bobbie, anti-american hatred is apparent in the art itself. If I hate someone and go up to them with a gun and kill them on the spot without first telling them “I hate you” does that mean.. I really don’t hate them?

Let’s be fair.

We can collect every flag, burn them all, roast marsh mallows and love one and other

Boretti to me the artworks were clearly political statements directed at the current US administration “not” the American people.

I agree with Bobbie and guerilla.

This isn’t about people hating people. It’s about the free expression of art and ideas, versus their suppression. The pen (or brush) is mightier than the sword (or the gun). That’s probably why this issue has generated a little heat. I am pleased so many people really care enough to discuss it.

I am a USA citizen, political statements in art or any other media are strongly defended in my country. So Red Bubbles actions do not mirror the attitude reflected in my country, in the USA the debate is free and heated and often crosses the line of social propriety, but is seldom successfully stiffled. RB has the right to establish the sort of community they choose but please do not interpret this as a whiplash from USA citizens, we have learned to tolerate these debates, regardless of our personal positions. We support freedom of expression to a fault and freedom in general with our lives and our treasure.

^{^^}^
wise man…

I’m so proud, I think – one of my pictures was posted as a candidate for the chopping block. Seriously, what would we do without guidelines? (hold on, typing that last sentence made my hands go for my throat) Looks like redbubble is growing up. You can’t really call yourself a community until the protectors of the innocent have waded in to alert the rest of us that we’ve gone astray. Unfettered artistic expression? Not in my lifetime, mister.

It’s sad really that RB is catering to the few that are being whiners about this issue.
Being half American and half Canadian I have seen far worse in the editorial sections of most major newspapers drawn by cartoonists. Whether it’s art, which this issue is, or satire, I have not seen ‘anything’ that has implied ‘hatred’ toward Americans.
My but aren’t you a touchy bunch.
Stop getting your panties in such a bunch over this issue….like the man said..if ya don’t like what you see….don’t look at it.
I’m telling you right now, you start censoring Mick’s art, you’re just a step away from censoring other art once people start whining about it…then comes the censoring of writing.

to be continued.

Throwing out legal precedences from US courts of law or quoting articles regarding absolute power in ancient Europe is getting to be, quite frankly, ridiculous!

As much as RedBubble has become the center of the universe for a lot of us, it is still just a website. RB is just a commercial enterprise. We are not here by divine right. They are not the ones that tax us, set/enforce the laws the govern our existence. They have simply provided a venue where we have the option to display and sell our work within their guidelines. This is not different than any other gallery or store.

No one is saying that you cannot create such pieces of art. Just that this venue isn’t the appropriate place to display it. Just like they have done with pornographic images and a bunch of other art that they have chosen to be inappropriate. Every gallery, every store, every private enterprise has the right to set their own guidelines.

On a side note, I personally have no problems with them staying but I also have no connection to the US (other than physical proximity) so I cannot not fully appreciate the concerns that they have over the work. You and I might not be offended, but that doesn’t mean other people can’t be.

oops…just ignore the double negative in my last paragraph and all the other gramitical mistakes. hopefully my point still comes acroos…

Being an American in Oz, I have really difficult feelings regarding all this. I fully support the freedom of expression, and so I am not sure I agree with the idea that there should be censorship here. As others said, however, this is RB’s house and RB’s rules.

On a purely emotional level, I am sort of thankful. To me, the flag is just a symbol, and so seeing it used as one is not a big deal to me. However, not everyone just looks at that flag as a symbol of a crazy administration, a government that has, by far, overstepped its boundaries. Plenty of people look at that and think, “American people.” Depending on the person I’m speaking to (note: not necessarily Australian, because Oz has people from all over :) ), I feel like a broken record, always explaining myself and having to explain that, simply because a government is a certain way, it does not mean its people are the same; and if any are, it does not mean all are. For people who have trouble making such a separation, art like this, no matter how valid or invalid the points it makes, really puts fuel to fire.

I’m not a fan of regulation, but it is RB’s decision, as said. If people want to post such things, they will certainly find welcoming climates for them (plenty!).

Instead of censorship, why doesn’t RedBubble simply create a category for Political Art? Add a disclaimer that RB is not responsible and does not necessarily agree with the artist’s concept.

Successful art evokes powerful emotion. If the viewers love it or hate it, it can be considered successful.

I am an American who has Kate’s award winning photo in my Favorites. None of Mick’s art is there because, while I appreciate humor and see grave danger in all religious fundamentalism, I do not appreciate a violent overtone. Also, I think every country has a law against desecration of its flag.

I lived in Greece under strong anti-American sentiment, and the Greeks made it clear that it was my government, not our citizens, who were the target of their animosity.

I am not personally offended by attacks on America, but do not appreciate violence in any form, especially art.

So RedBubble, may we have a category for Political Art?

Anita, this is precisely what I was saying earlier… to have a political art group…
It is great thinking that you mention that RB could write that they are not responsible and not necessarily agreeing with the content…

and I, personaly have nothing against Americans… I have many friends that are Americans… But you point it so nicely, that it is indeed the government, the leaders that gives me the shivers…

I would also ask RedBubble if it would be possible to have a political group… I lready have mentioned it somewhere in this posts jungle (or on one of the images …) But I ask here again…

Thank you for all the time you take to seek solutions here.

YOur work is greatly appreciated.

Crokus.

The problem with censorship is that it assumes absolutely that the idea we are stifling is wrong because it is different to our own. In that we all have the choice to click on mick’s page or not, the censorship on this site becomes tyrannical because it is designed to stop anyone else viewing it if they choose to. The calls for censorship also reflect a lack of confidence in the right wing elements here, since they cannot abide the idea of others expressing a contrary view, or that – Gawd forbid – other ideas might be right. For some, the notion that we are not all flag waving, god fearing, gun totin’ idiots is too much to bear. The idea that others might think for themselves is unbearable. Banning mick’s work is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime. And the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an idea is that it is robbing the human race because to reject ideas is to reject the human search. However, as even the US is learning on the international stage, ideas won’t stay banned, won’t burn, can’t be bombed out of existence, won’t go to jail, can never be silenced.

making a point about christianity (i.e. the cross) being mixed with violence… (I have only scanned after that so someone may have said this all ready)

The cross was made to crucify a man on it… christianity in it’s most fundamental is based on pain and suffering, torture and crucifiction (albeit for a ‘worthy’ cause) but to say that it should be pure and kept separate from violence it a bit hard to chew… every church I have ever been in has a cross with a man nailed to it…

it seems more offensive to burn the cross, perhaps because the symbolism of fire is mixed with demonic and satanic ideas…

to take that to the next modern day level… the symbol of damaging evil and pain today is the gun, who love their guns soooo much…

the idea follows…

but as I have said…

you guys are all getting a bee in your bonnet over absolutely nothing…

can Micks digital image rise up and kill you…

personally as a psychic who sees subliminal energies and how they interact with the brain I can honestly say that harry potter movies are a much greater concern to our children than whether redbubble censor this or not…

how many of you didn’t know about Mick at all before this???

feed the beast why don’t you all…

no one here has actually tried to move the community forward, just lots of winging and pointed wonton angst… write a letter to John Howard instead… ho hum

by the way… given some of the ideas that were up top, has everyone read everything in this thread? I have tried but am admitting that I haven’t ..

this happens so much on a long Journal… people don’t take everything in then they argue microscopic points from someone that got their emotions going and then there is a personal two and fro… and I think… that just jibberish to me… why aren’t these people sticking on topic?

just a side note… no one is actually going to understand what they are reading by the end of this thread… is that cool? oh well…

at lease some of you got some therapy!

@kathleen. Totally respect your point of view as always :) But for what it’s worth Christianity is not based on pain and suffering. That’s just it’s most recognisable ‘logo.’ The story behind it is anything but. But hey I don’t want to get into a religious debate :) As I said in the thread I just wanna add my two cents. But Kathleen I respect your work and dialogue and RB I respect the umpire’s decison. Cheers all.

neither do I melinda but I have had a very thourough religious education… I know where I am coming from here… the pain and suffering that was preached throughout the entire bible was why jesus came to earth and the reason he died was to supposedly prevent more pain and suffering… I could quote the verses and chapters if you like but it is too profulsely littered throughout…

how do you explain the ‘real’ easter to a 4 year old… ??? I took my daughter to a passion play in a big church… do you know how bloody confronting it was to me to have to explain the process of crucifixion to her… violence is all that comes from that book!

The entire old testiment almost is god setting up armies and peoples against each other to prove their love and loyalty… there is slavery there is marginilasation etc.

fundamental christianity (i.e. catholocism)... promotes sacrifice but also marginalization and segregation in the community… the bible says that women are unclean and that people cannot love each other if they are of the same sexual persuasion…

personally, you referring to it as a logo is more deeply deeply offensive than seeing the burning crosses in Madonna’s Like a Prayer film clip…

And I would go out in the street and burn the Australian flag in a heart beat if I had one (and there are police officers living across the road oooohhh they may beat me)...

It is a piece of printed material…

I am a citizen of the earth who happens to reside in australia… all boundaries be they political or religious do not exist for me at all…

and that is what this is about more than anything…

ontology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

and I would never personally let a British emblem a piece of blue fabric and a couple of stars represent the sum total that I am…

how shallow is that!!!!

sorry… I awoke angsty…

also being a person who is aware of the processes of re-incarnation and soul transcendence… i have only been an australian for a couple of years… really… the world was where I was born…

this has divided this community in the same way that the wall divided germany… the problem is is that we don’t all fit into categories… we are personality types but we need our own spaces to live in.

if you aren’t gonna get killed by it… the art wasn’t encouraging anyone to bomb america or fly planes into it…

What is the problem? It’s a statement just like the statement…

“I don’t believe this should be on redbubble because I…”

It about bloody choice in a public domain… report it if you have to but how many complaints were actually received out of how many??? 15000 users…

Maybe we should all report the artwork we really LOVE…

If you are saying that because I support this piece of work as an australian therefore I hate americans… are you not being hypocritical in context with the piece itself…

Mick says that all americans are the same… some here have said that because he did it all australian hate all americans…

yes is the answer… that is hypocritical.

Melinda… I respect your insight as always too… thanks for the support just feel like this is going to make me puke or explode…

one or the two…

oh and also, in my experience a lot of christians who spout about christianity don’t really understand or know that much about it… present company excluded of course… but you simply cannot judge the level of offense someone will have cause not everyone is attached to these types of symbol.

How can this be done without a unified belief to operate the unified approach??? it can’t.

by these guidelines, should I remove a lot of my contentious religious works because I associate the cross with the devil???

I really love RB and all Americans, even Aussies! . Pilgrim you can pull Cornwall to pieces in your writing if you want, Pommie bashing is fine to pubish it seems. Just not American flag-bashing.

Thanks guys for keeping the discussion alive. I suspect the ‘powers’ at RB have closed their minds and stopped listening. Pro-American and pro-Christian sentiment only from now on please. We don’t want them to bomb us!

Sorry I jest. That is called irony but if you don’t get it ban me.

Also while I’m at it I think organised religion has been the cause or pretext of almost every war, and also murder of innocents (Salem comes to mind.) Ban me again!

PC g0nE mAd

sorry… I should have refrained…

Kathleen, I know exactly how you feel.

It’s cool Kathleen. You and I disagree that’s all. And that’s fine. I’m not rying to be over zealous. Just putting my two cents in that’s all. I’ve no doubt we could disagree long into the night :) I can’t speak for all Christians and would never try too. You’re absolutely right. Some of them are completely inncorrect and hypocritical. Some hide behind it. Some use it as a sword. Some use it as an excuse. And here’s the thing. I don’t agree with them either :) I only speak for myself and what I believe. I don’t have the answers for eveyone else. I just believe in peace, forgiveness, compassion and love. I respect your opinion. Hope you respect mine. That’s all mate :) Cheers.

PS (If you want to get a further understanding about me, what I do and what I think. You can check out my shots and journal entries. The good, the bad and the ugly. It’s all there to see. I’m just this little dude in Melbourne doin’ what I can! If not that’s cool too).

psychic?!!!! :O

then you should know that people who do not understand religion or beliefs speak (about it) the loudest. and studying religion doesn’t mean that you understand it either.

DOUBLE POST !!!

TRIPLE POST !!!

I always assume that those that want to ban voices different to their own, do so because they are afraid the others may be right.

i do… that’s why i just bumble through like everyone else…

melinda we’re cool chicky!

gotta look at everything not just religion… not just quantum physics… the most powerful feelings come to me through artistic process and that is all I know… but I see stuff and feel stuff that’s only documented in metaphysics and studies of blah blah blah… confusing as buggery…

No worries Kathleen. All good :)

A very interesting debate… and yes… I read every word…

In a small way, I feel partly responsible for this, as I was one (of many?) that alerted RB to the fact that the commenters on mick’s images were not “playing nice”... I made it clear that I didn’t have any problem with the “artworks”, but that the comments were not in line with the spirit of RB…

I have since seen that criticism of Kate O’Brien’s excellent work “In God We Trust” has been drawn into this and I am wondering if RB fully realise what they have unleashed…

RB has made a very difficult decision, and let’s hope it’s the right one, but I’m wondering where we/they should draw the line in this matter… Have we opened a can of worms, or stirred up a hornets nest or poked a stick at another cliche?

e.g.

Personally, I disapprove of ALL religions, as most, if not all, seem to have become a mechanism for the powerful to prey on the vulnerable…, or to practice violence while preaching peace… Alternatively (and I’m sure this will be controversial) they have become an excuse for legitimately claiming to have an imaginary friend without being accused of being insane….

Whilst the original concepts behind some religions may have been genuine in nature, they have, in most cases, been exploited and exaggerated by those in control to achieve their aims…

Please refer to The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein or Kissing Hank’s Ass for a reflection of my views on religions…

One day, my art / photography may express this… Does this cross the line?
Would it offend the supporters of a particular religion and do they then have the right to take down my art???

I also disapprove Al Gore and his EXTREMELY flawed arguments about global warming / climate change / climate shift (or whatever he is calling it these days – another religion BTW)...

One day, my art / photography may express this… Does this cross the line?
Would it offend the supporters of a particular religion / green group and do they they then have the right to take down my art???

I also disapprove of my neighbours, who don’t understand the basics of living in a civilised neighbourhood… e.g. putting their garbage out on the right night and not attracting rats to our neighbourhood…

One day, my art / photography may express this… Does this cross the line?
Would it offend my neighbours, and do they have then have the right to take down my art???

Pandora’s Box???

There are some things that are just so despicable, we can barely look at photo’ evidence of them. But do we allow them to pass without comment? The violence inflicted by the US on innocent people since the beginning of this century has been decried as a war crime by every other culture on the planet. So, comments like, t’hose anti-american hating redbubblers who agree with these images.. I am sorry to hear you hate my country. I love my country and proud to be an American!’ Really miss the point. Are you proud of the hundreds of thousands murdered under your flag in Iraq? Do the Abu Graib photo’s make you feel warm and fuzzy? I think censoring criticism of such an appalling regime is the same as being complicit to its actions because you deny civilised people the right to express their horror and disgust..

Eloquently put, leek. I couldn’t agree more.

so now we’re disputing climate change too Leek? An imminent IPCC report
will show that in 2005 the world already passed the levels of greenhouse
emission that will likely create a disastrous climate change. Gawd the ignorance around here is breathtaking.

Artwanted, where a lot of your USA members have migrated from, have strong censorship policies, also ban nudes, politcal and religious topics, etc.

I don’t quote Bill Clinton often, but on one of his saturday radio broadcasts he said “Democracy is often racous”. That it is.

Anyway, summing up the past few days:

Bush = Murderer + Howard = Sheep = Murderers.

Politics doesn’t work. Democracy doesn’t exist.

Fuck you Bush.

Fuck you Howard.

Shayne your the ignorant one. The US has helped almost every country in the world and I think its time we turn our backs and let genecide happen whereever it happens. All we ever get is bashed and any good we have done past or present is never appreciated. So fuck you.

LOL Charlene, so now you’re telling me the US invaded Iraq to liberate the people? Per-lease, it was to steal the oil and make a squillion reconstructing what they destroyed. ‘The US has helped ITSELF to almost every country in the world ’ You must be the last person on earth to figure that one out. If y’all such saviours, go save the Zimbabweans. ps. I;m gonna tell your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ you said fuck, um, you gonna burn in hell bitch. :)
http://www.redbubble.com/people/shayne2011/art/251456-1-lies-lies-and-more-stupid-lies

Bobbie it was directed to all the ameican people Shayne has made that very clear, and what it said is for all american people to die.

Come down off your cross, Charlene.
”...And if there are any historians
about or years from now and there should be preserved the kinescopes of one week
of all three networks they will there find recorded
in black and white, and in color, evidence of decadence,
escapism and insulation from the realities
of the world in which we live. We are currently wealthy, fat,
comfortable, and complacent.We have a built-in allergy to
unpleasant or disturbing information. Our mass media reflect this…” Edward R. Murrow

fuck is just a word, I didn’tt defame God or His Son. And how many times have you said it about this country between the lines. uh? If yu like I’ll just stay on the cross you put me on. Thanks for everything, I agree Americans have become to compacent including YOU! I am just hoping to save enough to get out of the US. I see where it is going. and I believe its destruction is on the horizon, the hatred for The people of the US is very apparent, and I believe God will destroy it in the same way he did Sodom and Gormorah. Infact the bible even profesys its destruction and how.

take the blue pill, charlene, followed by a red one.

Firmly place your tongue in your cheek and think about what art on this site and everywhere else would look like if RedBubble posted this statement in the content guidelines:

Your images must conform to the our guidelines or it will be removed.

no breasts
no bums
no penises
no vaginas
no naked babies
no breastfeeding
no animal anus (especially cat ass)
no animal penises (especially horses and elephants)
no mating insects
no mating animals of any kind
no feces (animal or human)
no flags
no axes
no knives
no photos of graffiti (especially urban graffiti)
no guns (especially toy guns in children’s hands & includes water guns)
no children playing in sprinklers, pools, rivers, or lakes unless fully clothed
no sexually suggestive imagery
no sexually suggestive language
no religious imagery
no reference to religious beliefs
no denegration of any religious symbol
no denegration of any political symbol
no reference to any political views
no dead, injured, or dying animals (includes meat food items)
no reference to sexual orientation
no ____ (anything else that receives a complaint)

What are we left with then? Oh yeah, sunsets and trees.

Okay, take your tongue out of your cheek now. Someone, somewhere, somehow is going to be offended by just about anything (especially Americans, we just can’t leave anything alone).

what about pussies, Helen? Are we allowed to post pussy pix?

NO. I refer you to “No Sexual Suggestive Imagery” restriction. This includes any item, article, body part, animal, human being, word (slang or standard language usage), or any other image whether photographed, drawn, painted, etched, or created by computer software. And if that is not broad enough to cover your concern about whether your image may be removed, see the “NO ____(insert complaint here)” restriction.

You may post photos and drawings of trees, lakes, rivers, clouds, sunsets, moon shots, and other non-offensive imagery. Unless the clouds form the shape of a body part innumerated in the restrictions list, the Madonna appears in the clouds or tree branches, or any other part of the image.

brb, I’m just off to cover the piano legs.

This just added to the restriction list:

no violence (includes images with blood because it implies violence)

well damn, there goes my tampon mural.

Sorry shayne, but we must have a happy shiney community here. If we just adhere to the guidelines, there will never be another complaint, no discussion of any substance, and everyone will indoctrinated in the art of consensus, mediocrity, and conformity. Thank you for visiting, please come again. :)

can I get a shake with that?

This just in:

no skeletal remains (animal & human because bones imply death and death is BAD)

Of course you may get a shake, however we serve only weak vanilla shakes here shayne.

LOLOL, but I don’t do ‘vanilla’. :(
I’m thinking the late Senator MacCarthy would being LOVING this site.

This is what happens when the pendulum swings too far back in response to an angry outcry? I hope that after a flury of removals, the pendulum will once again stop swinging and settle down at that middle point where only a few people bitch and moan and only occasionally at that.

BTW I just left the Amnesty International site. If people want to see disturbing images, they should go there.

Well said Helen! All that you said.

Agree, Helen, i mean, the whole point is that people SHOULD be disgusted by the issues raised by some of the more politically aware posters on this site. We SHOULD be disturbed, moved, outraged; rather than be bored titless by some of the mediocrity dished up here.. Some brave souls are prepared to show us the truth about the world while morons on this site want to tell us it’s all raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens, brown paper packages tied up with strings, Cream colored ponies and crisp apple strudels, door bells and sleigh bells and schnitzel with noodles., wild geese that fly with the moon on their wings…. and oh, please, i may just upchuck.

I was twirling around to the sound of music while reading your post. LMAO.

Yeah, shit I don’t know what to say to people. If it’s puppies and kittens you want, there is a search bar at the top, type in “p-u-p-p-y” and you will get your heart’s desire.

Honestly, how do folks find art on this site? They have to SEARCH it out or WATCH artists that have a reputation for controvercial work. Jeez, it’s like the tele. If you don’t like it change the channel.

Well exactly, again, Helen. What did these people do when you saw the photo evidence from Abu Graib, for example? Think of woolen mittens? Do they not understand that it’s their denial and proscription of protest that enables such atrocities?

There are three cardinal rules when it comes to war crimes, atrocities, genocide, and all human rights violations (committed by any Nation):

1. Deny
2. Deny
3. Deny

Okay, I’m off for about an hour or so. I’ve got to start up my Paint Shop Pro program. I have a lovely white flower that I’m going to cut and paste into a pile of skulls covered with blood, surrounded by spent rifle shells, and a boot print. Then I have to come up with a catchy, controversial title.

Oh yeah, and BTW no one is screaming at me about my photo of a copy of the Bill of Rights burning. I suppose no one knows what the document looks like.

Oh man, there I go again being an ass hole. I almost made it until midnight my time! As the Terminator said: I’ll be back.

LETS TRY THIS…
for those protesting all these anti wotever….. EACH TIME someone posts a negative/political/bad energy ‘ART’, we post double the amount of images PROMOTING peace, positive affirmation, pure love, a good energy ‘ART’

:)

and Lostboy1 layoff the Hippies comment, or i will send you some Soya & Lentil burgers! ^hehehe

you mean even more raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens, brown paper packages tied up with strings, Cream colored ponies and crisp apple strudels, door bells and sleigh bells and schnitzel with noodles., wild geese that fly with the moon on their wings webgrrrrrrrrrrrrl?

Very OT, but shayne… You missed my point I think… I didn’t dispute climate change, merely Al Gore’s presentation of it… Climate has always changed and will change in the future… The causes are however disputable and uncertain… There is no conclusive proof that CO2 has any influence on it, but I guess if the IPCC has made up it’s mind that it’s too late, then I suppose we can all relax again… ;-)
p.s. if their mathematical models are so good, then how come they didn’t accurately predict when we would be past the point of no return until 2 years after it happened??? :-P
I could go on for hours on this subject, but this is not the place to do it…

all the facts and figures have been out there for ages, leek. the report to be released in november merely collates them all. ps. i think you, a venezualan beaver, and a guy in Bognor regis are orbably the only three left on the planet to still express such a Luddite view on the inevitable.

Well it’s a bit late to add what I think, but um, I prefer anything goes. Offense is subjective.

I’m sure you wish that was true Shayne, but as I said… this is not the place to debate that…

ok leek, it’s a deal. ps. the fact that they’ve just awarded the Nobel peace Prize to Gore and the International Commission on Climate Change has no bearing on your cred. At all.

P.P.S. No… it has more bearing on the credibility of the Nobel Peace Prize… but then again, bearing in mind some of their previous winners, they didn’t have much “cred” anyway…

BTW… If you seriously want to debate this subject… This is the place

Let’s keep it out of this thread and allow it to focus on what really matters…

Look
Look 2

HA! I HAD THE LAST WORD FUCKERS!!!!

Helen, I see those more as a documented image (be it set up or not). It’s not glorifying the KKK, nor is it being defamatory to the minorities that have been brutalized by the KKK. I can understand that some people may be offended by seeing it but there’s probably plenty of stuff in here that some people would be offended by. To me that’s not the issue that RB are raising.

Personally, I don’t know about art but I know what I like ;o)

And I personally believe that political commentary doesn’t need to resort to “sideshow art”, where cheap shock tactics are used to illicit a response. I don’t think that gets anyone thinking about the issues, they end up just reacting against the image itself. That to me is not political, just sensationalist.

I understand how it can be quite disturbing for people to see political and religious symbols manipulated or destroyed in the name of “art” so I understand RB’s point of view, but personally there’s nothing about the images in question that bothers me (other than the artists lack of imagination) as I only see it as a cheap trick to get your name in the paper (AKA “Piss Christ”, etc, etc, etc). Politics and Religion are easy targets for the basest levels of what is considered art, but rarely are they used to procure an intelligent, creative statement that actually makes us ponder the issues involved.

as is nudity in my opinion peter… cheapest and quickest way to short circuit the brain.. it has nothing to do with intellectualism in so many of the ‘artistic nudes’ that people claim are ‘artistic’...

Interesting ideas, Peter, and its good to see some moderate thinking. However, the paradox that strikes me is how does one make comment on the shocking, without being labelled ‘sensationalist.’ Some examples would be the civilian toll in Iraq, the American torture cells etc. The response from many here is that we should just look the other way and think about nice things.

All I said was LOOK. Draw your own conclusions.

Good point Damien.
Say there was a painting of the Aboriginal flag with blood over it. This could be taken as a comment about the stolen generation, or genocide since settlement, even reconciliation. Important topics that art may provoke further thought about.
It’s very hard to draw the line when you compare that idea to the USA flag example provided by RedBubble which they have rejected. I think the offence is in the mind of the observer, not necessarily in that piece itself.
Art isn’t necessarily about non-offence, cos there will always be someone who has a different perspective to a work.

This is bullshit

When american’s military declar war on anyone who opposes them, then the artistic community should be able to represent their views. Art has always been a major communication tool against atrocities such as those committed recently by america.

Art is predominately based on polar topics such as the difference between middle east and western beliefs. Without such driving factors everybody might as well just take photos of their asses. Hold on, that would mean Red Bubble was full of asses, oh shit, it already is.

I did think it was a site for art, now I realise that is obviously not the case.

Why don’t they just sue?!

I feel like I’m going to puke….

why do you hate us?
boo hoo, waa waa

I wish the americans would get out of my country, its not like their own country isnt big enough

they can take their crappy criminal intent, law and order, ncis shit with them as well

obviously things have degenerated to the level of sludge….pity…this was a good topic before it became overzealously over the top!
Jo O’Brian made a good point and one that many aussies may like to remember:-

There is no freedom of speech in Australia! Where are you all goign with that concept?
It’s a myth and a dangerous misconception – you can end up in jail through things you say in Australia!

...didn’t mean to sound like a scaremonger in previous comment…but it’s so politically scary what gets repeated and where….not only in australia…I guess sometimes a timely word in the right place is better than blowing hot air around….calculating risks – with consequences considered…another story….

ohh…...this all becomes very very complicated….I think it’s impossible as a social worker for me to ignore politics but the health and general well-being of the individual is where I have to concentrate my efforts and work…..

I wish more women were responsible for making global decisions though! Women may kill each other with bitchiness or sarcasm but we wouldn’t blow each other up with bombs!
Women also wouldn’t care less about who has the biggest .** (body part!)

My Soapbox for the day!!!

Sometimes I think about gathering all these male global leaders (for want of a better word) and giving them each a toy gun and locking them up in a room where they can pretned to blow off each others’ head and have fights and vent their testosterone driven madness around….SAFELY !!! then (perhaps) let them return to the real world where guns, bombs, armies and war are all anathema to a good life for humans on this planet!

Sincerely
Suzanne

I have a suggestion. Why not create another clickbox for things that might be considered inflammitory or a possible problem or offence to others. People then have the option to know whether or not they wish to go and look at it and see what it is. Make it so that their right to free speech is still there, but it has a safety filter for people who may not wish to see such things. If they do not care, they can make it so those can show in their regular viewing. If they do not wish to see such things, they can shut it off under options. Then everyone can go home happy. Rather than start a fight, just set the settings and options so everyone has their own option of see or not see. Anyone who does not post an inflammitory picture as being such, can be asked to remove it or mark it as such at that point, and all is good with redbubble again. This is just my suggestion, hope it helps,
Maraleh

Bravo, I don’t know the full extent, of this issue, Nor have I the time to read these comments at the moment, I will say however that this pic above is expressing a point of view, that I am inclined to agree with. The Superpower with an ego trip, is how I see this. I do understand the need for the quiet lady to keep a big dog in the yard. I understand that when that dog bites someone there’ll be a lot of criticism from the neighbors. but blatant self interest is another thing. I for one, cant understand why this pic is so upsetting to some, unless….it reveals secret truth perhaps?

If this comment is out of place here on the RB, by all means remove it. It is not my intention to offend or add comment unrelated to the RB.

A non-American’s perspective on the flag issue…

It seems there are many Americans who strongly disagree with that is happening in the name of their country, but their flag symbolises something separate – their own patriotism and love of their home where they grew up and where their family is.

It seems there are many non-Americans (myself included) who strongly disagree with that is happening in the world thanks to America, and they have come to see the American flag as a symbol of those things.

I can see why an American would draw the line at allowing images like the one above, EVEN when they may not approve of George Bush etc – though don’t artists have the right to express their political views by using the most appropriate symbol they can – the national flag of the country they are referring to?

To take it off the site and censor it is wrong, wrong, wrong.

Aurora’s suggestion is fantastic – let’s have another filter for people who are easily offended. I’d have thought the suggestion “Just don’t look at the offensive ones” would have been enough for those people, but obviously not.

I’ve just found this but I’m dismayed. Artists have been pushing buttons since way back when.

I also want to note that swastikas ARE NOT a Nazi symbol, nor are they evil. They are a peaceful symbol that was reappropriated for the Nazi regime. It makes me sick when people react negatively to swastikas when they are used correctly and positively. Of course – this is the issue. You can’t control the use of a symbol, nor how it is portrayed or understood. Meaning is made by the viewers!