RedBubble

I agree with Jaybe One hundred percent !!! I love RB also !

Disrespectful words or “art” are not meant to communicate with people, it’s throwing stones on others.

ditto Jaybe! and because everyone should feel just a little uncomfortable on a regular basis to cause thought to flow…. not to offend but to open eyes…

oh and gorgeous daughter Peter =D

Bravo, Jaybe!!

Thanks for that, I thought it was necessary as well to mention this.

Thank you Peter… I agree with Jaybe… being able to see and appreciate other people’s perspectives (maybe even especially those ‘hot’ issues) even if we don’t necessarily accept or agree with them, is exactly what makes Red Bubble so incredible.

Wars are caused by politics and religion stay out of both and there will be no problems.

From my opinion I had no idea that it portrade anything other than individuals art ! I did not take offence nor even thought it would elicit any offence. I also never even thought it even remotely was political nor made any such statement. Shame that some where offended, but hey ho thats us as individuals.

I also agree with Jaybe…I love RB too

Art is one’s interpretation on the world and how they see it. We all need not to be critical of anyone’s interpretations and views….This is art…..Everything goes! That’s why I am here as well!

Very well put Peter and I agree. Hot topics can be discussed in a way where they can be positive dicussions. The need for attack or personal comment is so unecessary and only turns a discussion into a warzone. Debate, by its very natuee, will attrack supporting and opposing views – those views have to be taken into account, even if disputed, and not met with agression and attack – then the debate can move forward. Tolerance of opposition is the key – you dont have to agee with it, but it must be given the respect it deserves to not cause offense.

i only agree in removing the images in that from a business sense it doesn’t add up to offend an upset a large market but i am so sick of that term anti-American just because people are passionate about American foreign policy…i think ive had to use this quote 3 times this week already:s

‘the term anti-American and its variants (hating America, and the like) are regularly employed to defame critics of state policy who may admire and respect the country, its culture and achievements, indeed think it is the greatest place on earth. Nevertheless the ‘hate America’ and are ‘anti-American’ on the tactic assumption that the society and its people are to be identified with state power. *This usage is drawn directly from the lexicon of totalitarianism. In the former Russian empire, dissidents were guilty of ‘anti-Sovietism’

when i saw it all i saw was art….leave it to those who have to overanalyze everything and judge/assume to ruin stuff…

much respect to the artists who created the controversial pieces, there is something to be said about controversy, and sometimes, controversy will weed out those who can see past what they immediatley take from a piece, and delve into the artists actual view or at least respect what the artist has done/said…as everyone has a different idea or view/take on certain subjects…

hope you enjoyed your vacation, and your daughter is adorable!!!

I agree with Jaybe!
Thanks Peter and have a safe return!

I love the way we as humans see the world in many ways.. I am loving my country.. but.. I do not love war.. and my voice in this can be lost for sure as everyone comes from the backgrounds that create them.. I did not even bother to look much at this page since I love color..silly I know but I did not even notice anything about this as my life that morning was so full of Joy.. I did not see this as much of anything so I passed it up!

I agree with Jaybe.. and I also see the point of others who focus on the pain of the world.. I am choosing more and more to focus on what feels good. This page, did nothing for me.. and sometimes the Home Page does nothing for me.. but sometimes it does.
Focus for me is the key to my happiness. I would not be here if I ever felt Red Bubble had a hidden agenda regarding politics and my country. I have always felt welcome here.

Peter,

Perhaps a section that teaches people how to give and receive feedback? Maybe tutorials on how to deal with and respond to view points that are different than your own. It seems like people become petty when someone refuses to think just how they think. But, I too believe that we are above this and can rise from it and create something better. After all, we are all adults and capable of adult interactions without resorting to the type of behavior reserved for trolls under bridges. Cheers!

Its a shame people were offended by yesterday’s homepage… I personally felt it was one of the better selection of art displayed for some time. Like others have said, all i saw was art from very gifted artists. Shame really…

Well spoken and I am glad you decided to stay open minded.. Each work of art is a seperate prespective .. And like people we have to deal with each one as we meet it.. Thanks for admiting that your not perfect … That means alot. There are wonderful people on RB.. Positive is always best..

I find it hard to know who has the right to know what is ‘disrespectful’. In todays society ANYTHING can be disrespectful to one person and not to 100 others. Even my short stories are disrespectful to a certain type of person, rapists and abusers, but my stories aren’t hounded (yet) as the 100 people agree with them. I didn’t think the front page the other day WAS bad. I saw it for what it was, in fact to me, knowing RB, I think I even took it as anti war in entirety, not as anti persons per se. That to me was a good thing and I enjoyed the images. Was I the 1, not in the 100? Anyway I see what you are saying Peter and I think you said it very well. To the person that chose the homepage, not everyone saw it in a bad light and just saw the art too, as art.

very well said peter..and sorry again about your vacation being ruined by coming back to another mess.
everyone needs to realize we are all different and add our culture to it, we are going to see things differently. for me personally i saw it as a war art form, not attack on anyone or any country.
its really sad when you have to apologize for a homepage.

with greatness comes responsibility i suppose.
i wouldnt have thought of that either, but you guys have so much “influence” that – should you sneeze we all catch a cold.

all the best and i certainly know it wasnt meant to offend anyone.

thanx so much Peter, for taking time out of your holiday to address these issues, i am indeed a very grateful member to hear from you..i think it’s just what we needed to hear :D

Thank you for your apology. I will remove my protest. I would hope that redbubble can focus on art and not on politics. It is not good business practice to offend your clients.

Why don’t you pick 8 of your most creative and open minded staff to choose 1 image to appear on the homepage everyday – sounds complicated and time consuming for all but for many weeks, the homepage does not represent what Red Bubble is about.

It should show different media, type of art, photography etc…... these 8 slots are SO important as visitors will rely on this to decide to enter the site or not.

Lately, it’s either groups or keywords being used for the selection, so having one person doing it so far hasn’t shown any sense as regards to marketing, and/or creativity (so many images on here, and so many nearly identical works are being shown on the homepage at the same time).

THIS IS NOT US! WHY ALL THE FUSS? LETS JUST BE GLAD WE HAVE SOMEONE
WHO CAN AND WILL HELP US WORK THROUGH THESE THINGS,BESIDES THE
THINGS WE HAVE WORKED THROUGH ON OUR OWN AS A GROUP. PEACE TO EVERYONE. WE NEED THAT.

Thankyou Peter for your explanation, I love Red Bubble and am extremely gfrateful for a place to display my works, Thanks for making Red Bubble possible

I think the more we are exposed to this kind of healthy debate, and the more we see gracious responses such as Peter’s, the more open we become to other points of view.

I think RB should be a place where we can enjoy and share art but when it touches on subjects that are hurtful and pointing fingers at people and cultures and countrys then its not the place for that topic!
We will all have different views bur when that view is directed at a group and its not nice then its time for RB to say stop or go!
We have people here who are mean and want to create problems thats sad bit most web sites have that but somewhere we need to have RB SAY THESE ARE THE RULES AND ENFORCE THEM OR ITS A SHAKY SHIP an no fun for its members!
I I like it here but the few rotten apples make it a hard place to come to with so much stupidity and jealousy’s in the air!
Its suppose to be a fun place. I hope Peters quest for unity and understanding works!

Good to hear, Peter! I know I kid around a lot, but I sometimes it seems unreal to me! We all have the capacity for tolerance and open-mindedness, yet so few of us actually take the time to use them. As usual, any way I can be of help is good news to me! My best to you all!

I think we must remember we are all ADULTS here/this is not a playground for small boys

so what do we classify as a HOT TOPIC

I think it is a little like nudity

IF YOU DO not like it DO NOT LOOK

but quit trying to police another’s art. The person with the loudest tweat is usually the least talented.

If there are rules set up here for acceptance you may as well close your doors BECAUSE there are dozens and dozens of other sites and so the art will just move from site to site still making a statement/still telling the world a message

I think the photographer who cannot handle the heat …get out now and leave the other artists and photographers to get on with their work.

Peter…..........REDBUBBLE is BRILLIANT/holiday well and enjoy! shit happens and we move on with certain freedom in creativity

i’m sure as well so i agree with MT .... your hardest challange is to find “hosts” that don’t let their personnal beliefs and thier IMHO’s (which we see ALOT of) dictate how forum discussions evolve….. i think hosts need to be a little less involved in giving their own opinions in public forums and turning them into a platform for their own views…..

Art can not exist without politics. Art can not be created in a vacuum. If I had to live in such a world, I would surely go mad(der)!

That being said, I’m very sorry your holiday was marred. It just doesn’t seem fair!

I saw a few postings suggesting ‘god help redbubble’ and the like and wondered what was going on? This after seeing the home page which I viewed as art and art alone. Could not fathom out what had rocked the boat so am grateful Peter of your post. I agree with jabe and others above … let us not get too critical or thin skinned to begin censoring what we can view … that takes self expression away .. take that away from redbubble … the bubble bursts!

I too would not like to feel anyone is offended … but also there should be no censorship on what we express as art …... stepping down quietly from my little used podium

Happy landings Peter, you have a gorgeous daughter! Tai

i do have one question…to be unbiased does this mean “pro-american” images e.g. patriotic wont be shown on the home page?

We see what we want to see, well stated Peter.

butchart – in response to your comment, it’s kind of unfair to expect hosts, who volunteer their time, to engage a muzzle every time there’s a spicy topic. I consider myself to be fair and liberal minded, and if I could not share my own views like every other member I would be very quick to hand over my host status.

A lot of the time, there is the perception that hosts hold more sway, but I assure you it’s only a perception. We all have the opportunity to voice our opinions but the very second we step over the line (detailed in the forum etiquette guidelines) we move into action. Please do not confuse our hosting actions with our own personal views.

there has to be one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Always difficult to deal with others perception of meaning. But also worry about offending people can limit creativity. Redbubble is great, and one of the most creative places on the net. It’s no wonder it’s becoming THE place to show your artwork. I think the reason is that it genuinely run by people who love art and that means they sometimes like things others many dislike. If Redbubble where run by suited corporate drones and had an army of lawyers looking at each front page submission the place would soon loose a great deal of it’s appeal.

So please just, keep putting the art you feel is good on the front page.

I viewed the so called offending art as satire, but satire is not something over sensitive Americans are used to.

FWIW, I didn’t see the page as anything other than another collection of good artworks. In retrospect, if the first (top left) image had been left out, I wonder if you’d have had to write this piece. Beside that, isn’t good art supposed to provoke some sort of emotive response? Couple that with good debate, and perhaps we can all progress.

i agree with jaybe totally…..and copy the words again…

“But perhaps the most important thing we can all build is a culture that’s accepting of ‘hot’ topics. A culture where things can be debated and discussed without it becoming personal. A culture where openness is encouraged and patience is shown. A culture where we strive to respect different perspectives.”
- And THAT is why I joined redbubble and love it so much.

art shouldn’t be banned. period.

For all of us to think alike is to say we should all produce the same style of art.
I truly believe that as our world keeps becoming smaller and our differences become less and less, it will the people (like artist) who think the most creatively, that will make the greatest, most peaceful, and productive changes in the world.
I’m proud that RB has offered some forums that may act as possible vehicles towards achieving those means.

i’m sick of people getting offended over every little thing… I thought most people here at redbubble where better than that… Wait a minute! I might have to be careful what I post because I might offend someone or everyone.

Art is about expression. Expressing opinions, thoughts, creativity, beliefs… If it is misinterpreted by others, I don’t think that is the artist’s fault.

Lovely baby Peter! And good luck with untifying this community…

absolutly jaybe…....thank you for those words….i agree…

and peter…...vacations …always take them….smiles…

i thank you again Peter for taking time to publically address these issues. It has been somewhat distressing me of late to see bickering and hurtful comments being made to and fro on journals, and today there looked to be a lot going on in the way of people wanting to leave Red Bubble. Freedom of speech is very important, I agree, but I cannot tolerate some of the incredibly indecent verbal attacks i’ve been witnessing lately, this to me is an abuse of that very freedom. For me personally, it is distressing to see people i care about having an open slinging match in journals. You open your Activities List, and start to venture in, and I get very saddened to find that my day today was so disturbed by it all..it certainly set the tone for my whole day. As artists, philosophers, writers, etc…we have a need to be heard, to share our point of view, to voice our political opinions, our ideals…but all the while we should remain mindful not to do harm.

Hi Peter,
This is the first time that I have ever replied to RB itself. Being in the US Army myself, when I saw the homepage yesterday I couldn’t help but be a little offended by it, however, I am also an artist, and believe that part of being an American, we have to allow all people to share their creativeness and speak their minds. This is one of the main reasons, why I became an soldier to begin with. To help protect this freedom. I really did understand when looking at it, that it wasn’t an anti war or anti American statement, but rather just a showing of creative, sensitive artists, that are rightfully expressing their views through their God given talents. I do appreciate the clarification by you, however it wasn’t really necessary.
Leslie

Missed that homepage, was off-line. Hope you had a gr8 vacation, your daughter is gorgeous :)

Recently there have been quite a few journals posted regarding the images home page that Redbubble posted. The images were deemed anti American. At first I jumped and thought “this is WRONG!!!” But after sitting with my thoughts for a day, I am reminded that we are all human, we all do things that we regret and wish that we could “un-do!” I for one still love Redbubble, and hope that since the powers at be did remove the images, we can all forgive! Life is just to short to stay angry, and if we never forgave one another, the world would be an even more hateful place than it is already!!! Lets try to stick together and be a united front in the name of love, and good art!
Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts. They are not intended to anger, they are not intended to make excuses for those that did something hurtful. I simply feel that if we can TRY to work together instead of against each other, this can continue to be a fabulous place to display, and sell art!!! After all, isn’t that why we are here?

As soon as we stop expressing our thought and our art, we die inside. I come from a very long line of military people. From the day i was born , I am proud of that. Tolerance is the one thing that we have been struggling with forever, now is not the time to let all that hard work go to the dogs. Freedom is our right and we have to, NOT MATTER WHAT protect it. If we don’t then we lose much more then we as humans can afford. Please be kind to each other and remember we are all human, all the same. Live Laugh Love.:) Stacy

The freedom of speech is often misinterpreted by others….....but it’s all good as long as it’s not compromised by a gun! As long as the freedom to speak does not encite war, or order the other to kill, or instill the beliefs of violence in the name of religion…..then we should all be able to speak our minds and make our own choices. Sometimes though….the choices people make are often misguided to say the least…....so a guiding hand is needed, without violence, to point out all the sides of the story….and in that way we get to make a well-informed choice…...but if there is no freedom of expression and speech…...we only get a one-sided, misguided image. And I’ve rambled on too much. At the end of the day…....the guy who put them on was thinking about the art…....he didn’t mean to offend with this. Gorgeous baby…..aw :o)

a storm in a tea cup

cometman, political commentary plays a big part in some of the best artists works. To try to suffocate someone elses view because it’s different from your own, is very saddening especially when dealing with the arts. As artists we should be making works that show people our views on life, not “Oh look I made something pretty”

And celebrating making decisions based on business is also pretty disappointing to hear. But I agree the site itself should be impartial. Galleries aren’t really supposed express the opinions, the artists housed within are.

Censorship is often the killer of really pertinent art pieces. I hope the censorship will be kept to the very bare minimum or not at all.

Gorgeous baby Peter and it looks like we’ll be seeing some gorgeous early morning shots too, hope you had a great holiday

Matt
There is a time a place for everything.
Redbubbles homepage should not be a place for offending it’s clients.
I have no problem with people expressing thier views.
If E-Bay did this, it would be on the national news.

Perhaps if we don’t allow anyone to batter anyone else’s belief system, and keep off the subject of war. That might help. hugs

This “war of words” has been going on since the beginning of humanity, I suspect. Cultures, religions, politicians… will, most likely, always be ‘hot topics’. If you are comfortable with your own culture, politics, religion… you should have no reason to tread so harshly on someone else’s beliefs. The great thing about the internet is that if you don’t like something…. you can hit “next”. I’m not one to keep my mouth shut either… but, knowing that I’ve posted something that I cannot delete… that is now a permanent reflection of who I am. Something that is said in a moment of hostility and could be on here forever…. gives me pause before I unleash misdirected fury on another person.
Thanks for addressing this, Peter….

Thankyou Peter for your explanation…that is why I like RB…but…

I think would be a good idea a heading stating what group the images belong to so as people new or old to the site can understand that many different groups are represented on the home page…Hugs…

RB should not be a place that some people think they have chance to disregard the standards of civilized behavior that make a society positive for individuals.

Peter thank you so much for clearing all of this up. I joined RB to display my images and enjoy the magnificent work of some great artist, what is art to some people is not to others, but I do feel like the home page is not the place to make statements because of potential buyers, new mambers or whatever. RB is made up of so many groups that the are can be displayed there and whomever wants to view can and others can pass it by. I also love RB, thanks Peter, and you do have a beautiful daughter!!

I should add here that I didn’t find the homepage to be extremely offensive. I dont like war and I think some of those pieces carried strong messages. I also think some of them were a little strong, but that is just my feelings on it. The point though, is that I do not hold any malice toward those people who did feel offended, it is their viewpoint on the artwork and nobody should tell them that they are wrong to think the way they do – it is their right. Just because I dont agree with someones view – it doesn’t give me any right to try and change it or protest to it in a bad way – its just a difference of opinion, nothing more.

“Please bear with us (and help us) as we work towards a better way of handling ‘hot’ topics. I think the next thing we’ll build is ‘moderated’ forum functionality – where selected ‘hot’ topics have every entry vetted before publication.”

Can’t wait, real censorship, finally! Are you serious?! And who will be the central scrutiniser?

And can we, offended by the war in question have offensive, pro-war articles and images removed?

Or is a one-way street?

As one of the ‘featured’ artists on said homepage (SAS) I am offended that others are offended by my work. It’s certainly not the intention of this work in particular. It was purely a pencil drawing of a soldier from a photo in a newspaper that I thought was interesting. I cannot speak for the other artists featured yesterday, but my work was neither anti-American nor pro-American – just a pencil study. Let others read into it what they will – and they obviously have!
RedBubble works best when people adhere to the “play nice” philosophy, and think outside the square just a little bit.
Find that too hard? Try a different site that’s pro-everything-you-like so your ego can get massaged everyday…

Peter, We, as Americans, do not want to see our servicemen depicted in a fashion
that would diminish them…for the most part all Americans including myself are very
much against this war and the Administration (I have written much about it)...but we
are sensitive as to how our servicemen are portrayed since they are fighting a
senseless war and coming back in body bags….or physically and mentally disabled
(their souls damaged)....

Political discussion is healthy…getting other peoples views informative…and
appreciated…so long as it is kept in an adult manner and does not become vile….

Art is beauty which I have found to be true on Red Bubble and politics can be handled
in the same manner.

I love RED BUBBLE…have made so many good friends…and I am sure the homepage
yesterday was not meant to discredit anyone but it did hit us as Americans hard because of our love of our Country (not the Administration) and our Military…

Thank you for all your efforts and your baby is absolutely adorable!!!!!!!

Hugs,

Sally xxxxxooooo

cometman, Redbubble is not ebay , it is an Art sight.Art is about freedom of expression and if people can’t handle that maybe a new career choice should be considered.

War is a very large part of human life as unfortunate as it is,and artists have been making statements about it for centuries. Political commentary is an important function of art and as such has a valid place on an art website.

I agree with Jaybe totally. As am American I didn’t find the homepage offensive. Good art and a good art site should be able to cover a whole range of human and non human topics. The problem is that things have been getting too personal lately. There needs to be more respect for differing opinions. That’s hard to do with hot issues, but it can lead to debate and growth.

PLEASE, STOP the MOB mentality.
We are ALL Artists here, until PROVEN otherwise.

I love that the home page is always changing. Some days are better than others. It is all just timing.

Perhaps the earth calendar might offer some home page inspiration. :-)

“But perhaps the most important thing we can all build is a culture that’s accepting of ‘hot’ topics. A culture where things can be debated and discussed without it becoming personal. A culture where openness is encouraged and patience is shown. A culture where we strive to respect different perspectives.”

Here! Here!

Thank you Peter for addressing this publically.

its a shame RB has kowtowed to the Empire, but hey, business is business ;))

Peter, your quite right, and quite wrong at the same time. You are right that the bubble should be a neutral platform, and much respect to you for seeing it that way. You are however wrong when you say the homepage generating the controversy was a mistake, as that would have removed you from that ‘neutral’ ground that you wish to be, and made you a censor instead.

The solution to this problem is simple, and has been around in other forms of media since their inception, and that is simply to state ( as you have here already ) that the bubble is neither endorsing nor rejecting the views portrayed by the artist.

I’m sure everyone has seen the disclaimers on the TV stations saying ‘the views and opinions expressed here are those of the (artist) alone, and are not an endorsement by this (station) of those views and opinions”. See… everyone wins… the host remains neutral while allowing the art to be remain uncensored.

If you want to censor anything, then censor the personal attacks on the artists ( as was the case with Helen Bascom ) that had nothing to do with the artwork at all. Helen’s response was not unusual, as most of the animal kingdom will go into defense mode when pushed into a corner by a mob. The purpose of the commentary on an artwork is to express how the artwork invokes feelings within you (both good and bad), and not for it to become a trial on the artists personal views, opinions, and beliefs, as that is called a witch hunt.

Beautiful little girl you have there, Dad, and I’m sure she’s not bored being able to spend some quality time with her wonderful father!

Peace & Love,

Grouchy ;)

I feel the current home page (full of juicy fruits) was done in good taste. And, this is coming from a guy who lives on pizza and burgers and peanut butter cups, oh my! dol, now I’m hungry…
editor’s note: Thanks Peter

Both sides will paint themselves into a corner they can’t get out of and the intolerance is equally shared. Those who want to use their artistic abilities as a tool for beating up on those that don’t agree with them are just as pig headed.

Wars are a direct result of the miserable failure of intellectuals who call themselves diplomats. The soldiers just get to clean up the mess.

Peter, I will accept your explanation, fair enough however, I did not come to RB because I thought I would be engaging in “enlightened discussions”. Frankly I can go to any debate forum on the internet if that is what I want. Instead I came to RB because I thought it would be a place where we would be able to enjoy art and learn from each other how to do it better. I have no interest in the type of art that was displayed on the home page and I do not feel I should be forced to view or see it if I don’t want to.

Instead I believe I should be allowed to mark the groups whose art I want to see or not see. Forcing me to view material I consider offensive is just as totalitarian as censoring the art. It would p[ace RB in a far less “Godly” role to just allow us to filter at a personal level. In that way RB would become to each of us what we desire it to be instead of RB being what whoever chooses the front page desires it to be. In that way I am not offended and those who see it as their personal play ground for anti-whatever don’t have to be offended that their free speech has been violated.

The fact is yes you have free speech, you can say, write, paint, portray whatever you will but the reverse of that is also true. I do not have to read it, view it or listen to it, As it stands right now my right of refusal is being violated because I am unable to filter at my level and that in my opinion would solve the whole dilemma.

I am born and raised in Michigan USA. I say NO to Censorship, it opens the floodgates for more regulation and removal of freedoms. You cant stop an artist from creating his artwork…..someone will see it. If my eyes are offended by something put in front of me….I turn my head. If someone is offended by something they see on this website and feel that they have to remove themselves from this website then that is their right too. I love this website because I love the world I live in….I get a small glimpse of parts of the world I will never see in my lifetime. Freedom of expression is a beautiful thing…..I would never ever want to lose that freedom.

Peter I missed all the controversy !
Free speech is the right of a democracy ..If 95% of people are in agreement ..let the other 5% have there say to but that doesnt mean that they should overrule the majority … Art is about presenting the world from the artists point of view …
Red bubble is for the artists ..Ididnt see the war home page but unless it was condoning the negative aspects of war …...I dont see a problem in free speech !!!
I like to give a respite from the reality of our day to day life in my art but other artists want to make us think and confront possibilities …even if they are an uncomfortable !!
Dont let anyone intimidate you guys!!!!!! Sorry you had to deal with this type of abuse !

The military home page was art, I didn’t like it but that is my view, I look art art from many of the RBer’s. Some I like some I don’t. I feel others think the dame of my photos.
But Art has been the medium with which many artists have protested politics and other things. A spanish artis protested the war at a time it was very perilious and survived.
Art is the expression on ONE persons opinion. Who we as individuals view it is all in our own minds.
It was too bad the home page was misinterpeted by many. I am an American and yes we do suppot our troops not the war. I saw on the home page different treatments of the military theme, each artist did his own thing in using the military as a theme.
It is too bad the collection drew so much flack.
One nice thing of RB is the filter to shield things from public viewing. I have out of curiosity check out some shielded and was shocked, but that is me. The shield is a good thing thanks for h aving it.
Thanks Peter for your explaination and Cute little girl.

I believe freedom of expression is important, and in spite of my personal opinion about the matter at hand I agree that it was in poor taste and insensitive to select these images for a Home Page. In my opinion, a Home Page should do it’s best to represent a neutral opinion of its members and be a page that entices new members. I wonder about other Americans that may have decided against joining RB that day as a consequence of that home page. From a marketing perspective that was a major mistake on the company’s part.

Imagine a home page filled with a one sided “hot topic” that relates to a sensitive matter in your own country. For the record, I personally am very much against the war, but I am not against the men and women fighting every day. They are my brothers and sisters, and while I also do whatever I can to argue against this war and pray it ends soon, I do respect my fellow Americans right to decide for themselves how they feel about it. We are free to believe what we want and that is what freedom of expression is really about. We can each speak out individually about our thoughts and fight our fights, however I also believe it is the responsibility of any corporation to maintain a level of integrity and do it’s best to represent all of it’s members. Perhaps a more neutral Home Page would be the responsible thing to do going forward.

I think the day that art is restricted to being “politically correct” would be a very sad day. I took no offense to the home page and I don’t see any reason why anyone, especially artists here on RedBubble should have taken offense. Art is expression and here in America we are free to express whatever we wish even if it goes against government leaders/policies. I think that anyone who can’t handle art as freedom of expression should find another site on which to display their work. I wouldn’t want to be part of a site that starts restricting what I, or anyone else can and cannot express through art.

Silhouette my foot. There are tons of images on the site that have silhouettes but don’t have to do with war. This homepage was about war, and the images presented were anti war, and since the person who picks the images remains anonymous, the images become the standard of Red Bubble. It might be wise, each time around, to have two people pick images (one for photography and one for the rest of the art), and it might not be a bad idea to know who is doing the picking. Then it’s more about individual taste & opinion than website policy. The RB’s showcases (home, art, clothing) are key to establishing the tone of the site. The images that land there are the ones that end up being seen the most, get the most comments, favorites, and general love. The spotlights are a great promotional tool, and very powerful, so it is wise to think how the images are picked, and the message they send. For my part I believe there is no need to make the site bland, or to ban certain topics. Let people tackle the prickly issues with their art, and let them express their opinions, just don’t let RB become a tool for propaganda on either side. Keep up the good work, you are doing a great job!

Here are some of the images I came up with when I searched for silhouette:
http://www.redbubble.com/people/sasufi/clothing/33362-18-eagle
http://www.redbubble.com/people/zomboy/clothing/1373162-3-dandylion-flight
http://www.redbubble.com/people/viodesign/art/755435-2-sunset-village
http://www.redbubble.com/people/abefleur/art/775696-3-angel
http://www.redbubble.com/people/kitsmumma/art/816696-9-vintage-summer
http://www.redbubble.com/people/webgrrl/art/89154-16-outback-eclipse-festival-2002

Thanks Peter for posting the “reasons” the art was chosen for the “hot” homepage.

Art can help us ‘see’ the world – it can help us to better understand the experience that is life. And politics, religion and other such ‘hot’ topics are often very important components of our world and our lives. As such I think they deserve to be the subject of artistic reflection – and subject to debate and discussion. To leave them off the site would be to create a conspicuous emptiness – and would limit the journey we might each be able to make with RB.

I don’t think that you should censor art. He in the USA Al Gore’s wife Tipper Gore had H.R. Giger banned in the mid eighties. When Michelangelo’s David was going to tour the states she wanted to add a fig leaf “over the privet area”.

Don’t CENSOR us.

Are you going to tell us what to shoot, paint, draw, and what to even wear.

Thanks for the concern, but we are all grown up now.

maybe some people should get a life and see the pictures for what they are…....... PICTURES!!!!

I hate to hear the hysteria has started back up. I am always surprized how thin skinned people can get. Our cartoonists In the US are brutal on this end, I don’t know why people are shocked over the homepage, none of which are new concepts, they reflect world view and have for decades.. Are these people afraid to look at their newspapers as well. I hope you won’t start censoring art like this, or writings. If the people who this upsets much are that offended why they can look at things that are more in their liking, and stop trying to control others expression. If they are so afraid of others ideas, then maybe this is not the right venue for them. I hope you will not let these people manipulate RB, if you lose their business, you will gain others and I don’t think you should worry about it.

That is just they were pictures, in different mediums and ideas. Put all Star Wars up and you would get the same reaction. Some people can’s see beyond their own noses
these are narrow minded people and see only their own art as acceptable.

I NEVER get involved in these type of issues…but there’s a first time for everything, I guess. At my age I’ve pretty much seen/heard it all. Is there anything left today that does not offend someone? Give me a break.
not offended by the images on the home page…I simply went to “My Bubble.” Maybe the answer is not to display images on the home page, or use generic images. I have always said the EASIEST job on earth is to be a critic, it seems to come so natural to people. I’ve seen artists various works displayed here on RedBubble that I did not appreciate, some written works, and even some groups as well. Do I contact the artists and tell them how much they offended me? What for? I move on. Maybe the offended critics should do the same. I saw no need to apologize.
By the way, I fought in Viet Nam in 1967/1968. How many people do you think ever walked up to me and said “Thanks, for protecting our country.” like they do these days? How about: none, zero, zip. I believe we were referred to as baby killers. Am I offended now that our soldiers are considered hero’s? To quote the Eagles “Get Over It!” Our military men and women are heroic, and they deserve our utmost respect and admiration.
I’m not saying there is no place for moderation…no one wants to see child porn or other perverted human behavior on this site. There are plenty of those on the internet.
But it’s my experience that some of the most sensitive people, and misunderstood, are artists. Why? It’s difficult for those who have no vision to understand a visionary.
I’ve kind of rambled on, which is why I don’t respond to these types of forums. My whole point is, if you don’t like it, deal with it and move on. Keep RedBubble free from ignorance.

THANK YOU Sally Omar,maka1967,I agree .Thank you Peter for addressing our concerns…We don’t want war but our childern or there fighting so we have to back our childern…Front page was not the place for the 3 peaces i saw.And yes I had the believers praying for red bubble leadership…and He came tru with you Peter…I’m not saying it can not be viewed..but it should be where most americas will not be affended .
(front page)Red Bubble is a great site,I enjoy it alot..I have the write to choose what i look at and reply to..but the front cover left me with no rights as a American.
You got a beautiful dauther Peter, and sorry it came down to getting your attention on your vacation..But Thank So Much::)

Right on jonh403. I gree with you Nam vets deserved more than what they got. But Views change and in the 60’s views were fueled by physo drugs and stupidy.
As I said before like you move on there is so much more art to like than not like.

Write=RIGHT..sorry

Yes pictures, and yes art is expression but the fact remains that RB using a home page to show what they did offended people. Does anyone here really think that they can stop that from happening simply by stating that they don’t understand why people are offended. The point is that people were and that’s a problem for RB. Whether you agree or not using the Home Page, which belongs to all of us was not the right venue to express this opinion. Each artist has every right to post what they wish and quite frankly the art was wonderful but the MESSAGE in the art and the CHOICE to use it on the Home Page was not something that all members agree with. That’s the issue. And for the record, yes some people don’t read the newspaper because it’s a choice not to. Nobody wants to control an artists expression but the Home Page should represent a neutral tone. It’s not about manipulation Susan, it’s about respect for others. Insensitivity to the matter is what surprises me. I wonder how some of you would feel if your brother was just brought home that day killed by the war.

I appreciate the explanation of the choosing of the homepage…Just for me, the homepage was simply bad timing after the fiasco in the forum….This was a little more complicated than the homepage….I would not have enjoyed the images anyway, but I would never have mentioned them without the forum issue having become so heated.

Everyone here is talking about censorship…what about humanity…I am sure there are
plenty of Bubblers who have husbands, sons, daughters, and grandchildren fighting
this war..they should not be exposed to seeing a homepage that depicts our soldiers
as villians..RB did the right thing taking this homepage off…it was extremely insensitive..
hopefully no one meant it to be cruel…but it hurts us as Americans to see our men
who are so brave depicted in this matter…

”....A culture where openness is encouraged and patience is shown. A culture where we strive to respect different perspectives.”

Brought tears to my eyes. Can’t agree with you enough. Thank you and I’m so very sorry all of this has interfered with your vacation.

I find nothing wrong with the images RB selected…..it’s reality really.
Oh….and can someone tell me why nobody from RB contacts me when I email them? I won 1st place in a contest a while ago and was told that I get a prize…..I’ve heard nothing about it since.

Didn’t have a problem with yesterdays front page, but sometimes I just hope, when I open the front page, that people I have pointed in the direction of RB don’t look today.
Sometimes I think it doesn’t do RB justice, but then that just my opinion. – Ted

art is Free to inspire, interpret , startle, shock, grow, die, calm, laugh, lie, cry, and especially offend the closed mind so please. Long live art and it freedom to express .

Words words words. Look at Picasso’s Guernica what a stir it did in Spain. But Guernica is not offensive when you put pig headed soldiers this is very offensive
I love the USA and I respect the soldiers who are killing themselves over this OIL war that’s what it is. As an artist I am very sensitive and there is a lot of offensive art out there. Words I do not read but a painting it hits me, it hurts me it it vile and offensive those who talk about pig headed soldiers are talking about themselves the pig who drew this. Political cartoonist make their mark but rarely do they offend. Mother Teresa she said, “she would never attend an anti war rally, but if there were a peace rally she would attend.” Peace under love tolerance and beauty otherwise it is not peace…...........

I must add one other thing….Americans are not close-minded nor are we thin-skinned..
we are grieving for lost lives of young men and women in a thankless senseless war…
offended .. yes we were offended…we were hurt to the core that there was such in-
sensitivity shown and I am a free-thinker…I am against the War…and cannot stand
the Administration…BUT I BACK OUR SERVICEMEN….THEY ARE ALWAYS IN MY
HEART…I DO NOT WANT TO SEE THEM DEPICTED IN A DIMINISHING MANNER….
and feel RB did the right thing removing the page that hurt so many….

I am always writing about the problems of this Administration…homelessness,
prejudice….a senseless war….but never would I diminish the bravery of our soldiers…

I believe in politics in art….but I also believe in humanity…..

Thanks, Peter, for weighing in on this “skirmish” – perhaps folks will think a bit more before tapping the “add comment” button.

I do wonder though, about your statement Please bear with us (and help us) as we work towards a better way of handling ‘hot’ topics. I think the next thing we’ll build is ‘moderated’ forum functionality – where selected ‘hot’ topics have every entry vetted before publication. “Every entry vetted”? That’s a big job even if you could devise clear cut standards for forum post publication. “Play nice” ...would that include no foul language; logical arguments; no names; no “me too” piling on without further contribution? Is it possible for all moderators to interpret the vetting rules consistently?

Lots to consider on this feature before implementation.

Hope your vacation was restorative!
Denise

Another thing before I forget you have a beautiful child Peter and you are a beautiful person you show this in your art.

As a veteran US soldier I am very happy when I see and anti-war image on redbubble or anywhere else.
Some of those images seem a bit violent for my taste and could have been done differently to make the same point, but it is their creation and not mine.
Any image that helps get the USA out of Iraq, out of the middle east altogether, and lessens our world domination viewpoint is OK by me.
Peace to all.

This has become a nanny world where “offending” someone is a high crime and the source of endless knashing of teeth and diatribes.
If someone is that overly sensitive to other’s opinions I’d suggest a vacation or medication.

Right on john403 & debteral!!! & you know what!... you can never please everyone all the time!!!!!!!!!!

Are you sure the redbubble isn’t a heart? I like the connection to the artists that is felt by you guys. A person feels at home here and that separates “red” from the rest. Thanks guys.

Austin

The things that makes us different are the things that make us unique. Just because I don’t hold the same beliefs or opinions as a person or group of people; doesn’t make me wrong & them right or vice versa. It just makes us different & being different doesn’t mean we have to hate or dislike each other. There are good people on every continent & sadly bad people too. Lets hear it for the good people & maybe the bad people will come & join us too.

As a citizen of the United States I thought the home page reflected what “thinking art” and art that should invoke a reaction whether pretty flowers or war (most prefer pretty flowers for the denial crowd) was not anti-American but anti-war and not controversial at all. Here in the United States the current administration has for home consumption banned any and almost all of the dead soldiers and dying victim’s photographs of the Iraq War and the mainstream media is a tool of the NeoCons which report and sanitize “blah blah….the SURGE blah blah by the parakeet John McBooosh McBomb McSame McSurge McCain.” Redbubble why an apology? Would you apologize for Picasso’s Guernica or The Third of May 1808 by Goya? Mediocre is not a color and some artist paint or photograph with only that palette color….black on white stark thought provoking images was sobering from the “blah blah” of some of Rebubbles homepages….no criticism from the mediocre beret crowd on mediocre homepages and yes mediocre sells….I use that palette color too (well here at RB). Buck up and dare to be provocative and topical once in a while…..kudos to whoever selected the subject matter for that homepage edition…courage is out of fashion in the New World Order even if it is on an art for sale website….Godspeed to you all at H.Q. sincerely (Redbubble is an excellent venue) and “have a nice day” (picture a sweet American smiley face from the American heartland…. George Dubya and John McCain country…”SURGE!” forward for a hundred years of WAR with a Smiley Face McCain bobble head leading the way).

So I guess Guernica was not a good idea? Peter there is no reason to apologize for anything. Enjoy your vacation, love your baby, know that you have thousands of friends and let the rest go…

didn’t read all the replies but, in short, i agree with JayBe. Openess! As artist, we need to allow others to express their opinions. I also love RedBubble. It has allowed me to see our world in a way that i believe is conducive to our creativity and understanding of others. Oh how easy it is to love when one chooses what can and can not be seen or heard. How easy it is to only love those who share our own oppinions. Hmmm.
I love this RB community and I have a hjgh respect for all of you who make this possible.
So, Cheers to you Jaybe and to ALL of you who give us this great opportunity to learn, to share and to realize what it may be to truly love.
sincerly, carlos

You said it all Montdragon!!!

When i saw the homepage the other day the Iraq war never even entered my mind. Ive noticed that the home pages follow a certain theme everytime they are changed and this was just another theme. Isnt it strange how some people interprit things?

RB did the right thing by removing the homepage that was in question….Let’s us now move forward. Thank you !!!!

I appreciate your words Peter ~ and often times I don’t feel we remember this site is for selling and the home page is our “face” to the buying world ~ overall it should be diverse and engaging with all mediums and varied kinds of art to draw in all kinds of buyers.
Also I feel it would be a mistake to have to “parent or moderate” expression here on the site ~ I appreciate the open forum RB has been to express all points of view about any subject.
On a positive note ~ can we all sound the note of positivity irregardless of our pov or the subject matter ~ far more can be gained ~ for ourselves and each other and around the world in general ~ if we take this approach. Remembering again ~ consideration and kindness goes far further to forwarding anything! And best served by example :)
In this context ~ in our comments, in our forums, in our replies ~ we leave footprints for buyers and if we keep conscience of that fact ~ I think everyone will benefit all.
Thanks again for listening ~ and being the place where we can openly express ~ through our art and our “conversations” in this fine and wonderful thread on the web xx

Thank you for addressing this so quickly Peter!!! So glad you had a great vacation =]

Everything you said – I agree with. If you don’t like something, ignore it. You can never please everyone and I think you are doing a great job. Shame about spoiling your holiday and good of you to address the situation as you have.
Keep up the good work, the majority are with you.

I think rb generally has the right attitude to these things, I’m happy to be associated with all you clever people! Insisting on an artists interpretation for featured works used might have avoided all this? Still we live and learn and in time rb will have any necessary precautions in place I’m sure! Crack on bubblers!

To Sally O., have you seen a video called “Winter Soldiers”? You really should take a look and listen. There are several to watch. Parts 1 and 2 etc. Just type in that title and it will take you to it. A real eye opener for any one. I think your heart is in the right place but I personally do not like people lumping me into a group and then speaking for me. I am a US citizen and I live in the US. I would never assume the right to speak for anyone. I like redbubble. They are sensitive to ALL!, and I appreciate that.
Thanks and PEACE to all.

I thought the homepage was great. Never did I think it was “Anti American.” Keep up the fantastic work. The Bubble is perfect for self-expression and progressive thinking. If you spend all your time worrying about being non-offensive.. you’ll strip this site of what we all come here for.

RedBubble is like LIFE magazine of old - a sort of photojournalism, where the pictures represent current society. Different aspects of that society are presented every day, but collectively, that’s reality baby. RedBubble should not allow itself to be manipulated by those who view it is as a sport to see if they can get companies to bend to eliminate part of life they don’t like. Period. Similarly, you should not make an effort to make your homepage images “devoid” of opinion - you should simply make sure that you rotate through a wide selection of the art that is being created, so no one can falsely claim that you are doing anything but representing the art that we, the people, are making today.

You already know where I stand Peter – I just want to show my work on a site that shows a higher level of professionalism. I don’t believe in censorship, but I do believe hot conflict between “intercourse challenged” adults should be kept from the public view. Your idea of vetting each comment is good too but vetting comments takes the liveliness and continuity from the discourse. I hope you get this sorted out.

There will always be a controversy, i.e. controversly can be found anywhere. It’s what politicians are for. We are not supposed to help them.

sweet. i too thought the homepage was
cool. i simply think peoples reactions were on a part of a
week long look into some serious hot topics in the Gen Forum
i think the homosexuality thread was a lot worse though
and i commend RB for bringing that up

To Ann, I was not speaking for all Americans…but I certainly felt the page diminished
our soldiers…the war is terrible…should have never happened…the present administration the worst ever….if you did not see the homepage as I did…I understand
everyone has a different view of art…but of course everyone has an opinion too…
As far as Red Bubble…I love it…and the people on it are remarkable…I think the page
was a mistake and RB was correct in removing it…. and you also have a right to your opinion…I know what is going on in Iraq…I am well-informed….

Well said Peter, I think it’s healthy if RB shows itself big enough to set a good example (ie accepting that some level of offence had in fact been caused to some people and apologizing for that), which hopefully we can all follow. While I’m happy enough with artists expressing themselves (though, if we’re being realistic, I rather hope not without any constraint – I certainly benefit from constraining sometimes!), what some contributors seem to be missing is the difference between individual artists and an apparent (if unintentional) editorial line. Openness is what the site is about, and that must include being welcoming to those whose views we don’t like (within reasonable limits). As for “kowtowing to the empire”, one very useful tip for keeping contentious debate civilized is to avoid impugning people’s motives … Peter, like the soldiers, was doing his job.

Again, the problem was not about controversial art posted on RB it was because it was posted on the Homepage. Not a good sales tactic, unless of course that is the type of member you’re seeking..

No one is suggesting that this type of art be censored here or anywhere. Lord knows we must not use discriminating judgement and need to be accepting of all things.
The only thing today that remains Taboo is child molestation but that’s slowly becoming accepted too.
To think that we as adults can discuss in an open forum politics or religion today is not being realistic. People are entirely too confrontational, too self-centered, too radical to debate issues as sensitive as the above in a civilized manner.
Parents cannot go to their son’s little league game without getting verbal or physical, sometimes to the point of murder. Violence is everywhere and children can’t attend elementary or grade school without being subjected to bullies. People can’t travel on the same highways without being shot at and conservatives and/or the religious right cannot speak out freely without verbal obsenities being thrown at them or just being silenced.
“Art can help us “see” the world.” Every time I turn on my tv or open up a newspaper I “see” the world as the liberal media reminds me of it 24/7. Perhaps, those of us on the other side do not and will not accept what the “liberal” media has jammed down our throats for decades.

Hoping that we as adults can rationally discuss religion and politics may have been possible decades ago.. Today, it is wishful thinking and unrealistic . There is far too much anger in the world, people have become unreasonable and cannot even get along with neighbors…..and liberals cannot stand to even listen to opposing views.

But, when The Right speaks out, how dare they open their mouths….
.

there will always be topics we, as individuals, may object to. It’s natural and the way of the world. But we should always be prepared to allow others to express their own views, even if we disagree with them. It is the basis of a free society; the right to freedom of speech and freedom of thought, but with that freedom comes responsibility, and that is the difficult part.

I thought the page looked good, not anti american in any way. Keep up the good work RB.

wow, i cant believe how sensitive and selfish some people are… those protesting against these images are being ridiculous and kowtowing to the self indulgent bleatings of these whingers only serves to encourage them.
there is a war going on, a comment on the war, whether it be made by a journalist, person on the street or an artist is only that person’s opinion or point of view – being exposed to that view, however offensive it may be to an individual does not diminish the creators view or opinion and nobody should have to apologise for its existance.
there are plenty of things in this world i dont like, agree with or approve of and thats just too bad for me. It would be churlish of me to carry on like i am so important that everything i dont like should change to suit me.
I am so sick of political correctness and it really saddens me that people think they have the right to censor art when it isnt politically correct enough for them.
When i looked at the images, all i saw was soldiers… i didnt even register that it had anything to do with iraq, or that it was anti anything. If it did, or if i had noticed then big deal. When you censor art, you kill its soul.

I saw agree with your statement and view art with an open mind. There will always be some images an indivudal may not agree with or see a the beauty, but ti does not mean that it is wrong. It is jsut another perception. Art is a form of expression and hsould be free.
Those who are offended, should chekc their minds, before judging others. However, i draw the line on child pornography.

Well for mine, all creative work, other than decorative art, aims to encapsulate and evoke passion. If a person has trouble with that then they should be playing on sites specialising in wall paper design and flower arrangements.

I for one will not be intimidated by arch conservatives who clamber to the high ground and announce they own the “maturity and reasonableness” conch.

It is categorically immature and unreasonable for anyone to be on a site that’s a vehicle for art (whether it is bad, good, or excellent art) and for that person to protest that they have found passion: in their reactions or the reaction of others.

I hadn’t realised that the home page is selected by RB staff in turn. That’s an excellent idea. The person who selected the “naughty” page obviously made choices around a stylistic theme and that included a couple of images that said things about war-mongering and militaristic solutions in the world. Well, bugger me, fancy that!? Is there really concern about wars over oil and the use of military might to enforce will? Really? I never noticed.

Tap, tap…excuse me…isn’t it a useful skill, when appreciating art, to open your eyes?

I just wanted to add that I didn’t find the home page offensive.

I have a son and daughter in law in the U.S. Army (E9 and E8 respectively) and they would not have found it offensive, either. They would have appreciated the creativity and talent of these artists though I’m sure they would not have agreed with the political agenda, if they felt there “was” an agenda.

My son has run into some harsh criticisms from people who do not believe we should be in a war, but he never loses sight of the fact that he believes in freedom, including freedom of speech and freedom of expression.

I agree with redbubble after all some of the most iconic images and some of the most famous paintings in the world depict death, war and religion and to ignore these would be to ignore the real world around us and is that not makes us all artists our ability to interpret the world around us and display and convey it to others using imagery.

Thank you Peter for writing this explanation, I appreciate you taking the time to do this. From reading the responses I still think there needs to be something else clarified. I am one of the so called ” touchy americans” or the “sensitive and selfish ” people that others keep mentioning. What those people dont seem to get is that the image wasnt the problem per say… it was the nasty comments from a few people that caused the problem. The very first post in that thread was a list of all the countries the US has bombed, then everyone jumped in and started the hate thread…. and yes, it was explicitly aimed at americans. I find it un-nerving that they were allowed to bash us and then when we pushed back, were “touchy ”. I dont get that…. this has lead to personal emails, personal attacks, being called names etc…. I said from the beginning it wasnt the art that I had a problem with, it was the ugly and rude remarks that went along with it. As far as the homepage, I have seen that one up before and didnt think twice about it… could have cared less, but when it appeared after dealing with crude accusations and hateful emails that were turned in and allowed to continue, it sure did seem it was to make a statement. I will accept the explanation from you that it was just an untimely coincidence and move on. Im all for discussion of “hot topics ”, but only with people that can do it without taking stabs and pot shots at you personally. I think it should be moderated, then you will be able to weed out all the useless comments and personal attacks. That will be a ” discussion ”.

Everybody is different, if we were not, the world would be a pretty boring place full of clones. EVERYBODY will find SOMETHING offensive SOMEWHERE. Simple solution, if you don’t like the thumbnail image, don’t look further into the image or others like it. It’s a bit like the “OFF” switch on your TV! I don’t think that RB should censor works posted because then that would make only RB’s point of view the “RIGHT” point of view. Having said all of this, I came here for the art anyway, (and hopefully to sell some of my work!! :) ), not to discuss any topics. Keep heart RB, your doing a great job. Keep up the good work. :)

I for one am totally against censorship and blocking free speech.
1) I am a Native American
2)I am also a Disabled American Veteran (Nam era vet)
This being said, I did not find offense at the home page as they were forms of art by artist and they have the right to draw, paint, and maybe some of the items were done as an off chute of a role playing game maybe not. I may not agree with some of the works posted and I have the right to choose not to go to their page and view their other works.

When the small group can create enough banter and get the works banned because of such banter this their views are nothing but pure unadulterated censorship.

Freedom of speech is just that Freedom of Speech and there are no exceptions as if the speech is hurtful, or if the speech is degrading, NO there are not exceptions to this clause it is FREE and what part of FREE is not clear.

Now I have deleted several from my favorites because of such intolerance and that is my FREE choice to do as there is such a thing as a delete button on your page, so use it if you don’t like it.

When my so called friends choose to do this for me then it is censorship and THEY have taken my right to choose away from me and if they choose for me they are not a true friend, parent or sibling.

IF I am not wrong this is an Australian based site not an American based site, and it seems that all the Americans want to control what is done here.

I have lived with discrimination on a daily basis for the past 60 1/2 years as I have the Fortunate Pride of being a Native American and a Nam era Vet.

America as the World is supposed to be about FREEDOM not the exclusion of it because of you not liking something.

We all know if something is put down it will make it a martyr out of what it is you are trying to squash.

I for one am here to supplement my pathetic government disability and make friends and learn an not necessarily in that order.
But for the most part all I see is complaints, gripes, and more complaining.

Wel enough of my opinion

SAY NO TO CENSORSHIP

SAY YES TO GETTING ALONG

It will takes you another two weeks just to read all these replies.
I had guessed that there was a theme to the ‘home-pages’ and assumed this was ‘soldiers’ – nothing more. But then I am English! I appreciated the artwork, though it’s not to my particular taste … and it has to be said that I didn’t understand some of the images! Some of us are too in-sensitive, perhaps other over sensitive.
Great work everyone. I’m quite new and love RB – have ‘met’ some lovely people.
God bless you all… or, to be safe… in the words of the great comic Dave Allen…’May your God go with you.’! LoL, Mina

I normally don’t visit the Home Page! I have a shortcut on my desktop to ‘My Bubble’ and use that. The other day, however, I did visit the Home page to see what was happening there. I did not like the images I saw there, nor did I think they were particularly good art. I thought that, as a Home Page, it was in very bad taste. I don’t want my day coloured by the image of someone blowing his own brains out, so I went back to My Bubble. That is a choice any of us can take.

Thank you Peter for taking action on this. A Home Page is supposed to convey the impression of what the website is about, and that is not what Red Bubble is about!

My 2 cents worth. I saw the complaint yesterday and thought, wow I missed that home page, must have been good. Then I see it here and its nothing, so I say get on with life. have read a number of comments, and over sensitivity is mentioned. The way I look at it is if you truly believe in something, then it doesn’t matter what is said, or who says it, or how it is said, because you know it is right and you don’t take any notice. I did not read anything into what the homepage was saying that realy of concern. I have seen many things on RB, that if I really wanted to, I could choose to be upset of, but then thats only if I had nothing better to do. The complaints made are typical of a culture that feels a need to sue you because you coughed. Now in my opinion, thats poor form, but it’s their choice. I just ignore it and get on with living in this wonderful country of Aus.
Good luck RB, maybe if more people pull their art, there will be more chance of mine being noticed. :) :)

Peter, I am sorry that your vacation was interrupted… but thank you for taking the time to write so eloquently.

I have read the entire comment stream, and I think Jaybe’s first comment stills sums it best for me. I’d like to see the culture of openness, patience and respect in all situations and aspects of life… and see no reason why we can’t build it here.

A PS. I should have added that I’m opposed to any attempt at corralling so called “hot topics”. It is impossible to objectively decide on what a “hot topic” is. With a hot topic filter in play it will be equally impossible for us to work out if we have drifted into that category until after we have posted. And what is likely to be the effect? How “hot” will the topic have to be before it’s removed? Is there an intention to remove stuff that’s political controversial? Will it mean that if politically controversial subjects are only found in one spot on RB then will that mean that only one type of viewer will go there? How boring is that?

I’m all for quick action on RB’s part to take action against people who use the site to conduct personal vilification campaigns. It’s not just politics that can initiate that type of nasty attitude to commenting on RB.

But it is simply, wrong, wrong, wrong for anxiety about the distress caused by overtly political statements in a piece of art to be masked with claims that they are personal attacks. That’s a road that leads to zero political debate. And its a lovely easy road that Australians (along with lots of other nationalities) will defer to: it’s easy on the suspension, never challenges and means the children in the back can draw pretty pictures without being bumped about. Don’t go there RB.

And in the interests of clarity, I’m well aware that this whole issue has come about because a few of our North American fellow RBers have got a bit toey. I have deliberately avoided making any direct reference to that in the case I put for no “hot topic” censorship because I know full well that Australians can be as stupid and naive about political issues as North Americans can.

No one in Australia should have the temerity to go throwing stones. Bloody hell, as if we don’t know what it is to have an idiot leading our country, and having to face up to taking collective responsibility for that happening? In an ironical illustration of how I feel about political awareness here I will mention that I have posted one overtly political shot on RB. It wasn’t a particularly good shot I admit. But interestingly, and unusually, it attracted no comments. Not one, until recently. And who commented on it positively, or more accurately, commented positively to the sentiment in the shot? A lad from Brooklyn in the good old US and A.

Any Ozies lining up to have cheap shots (by that I mean personal shots) at North Americans need to pull their heads out of their smug arses and have a look around, it will do ‘em good.

I think you will find as our way of life that we traditionally have embraced in America comes tumbling down, there will be a tendency from those in Power to maintain illusionary control. Cruelty in any form is not the answer. Our own government has ruled torture as acceptable behavior/the ultimate form of cruelty. You need to use your intelligence and brain power. You cannot beat them. Sometimes metaphor is the best weapon.

Well Peter I don’t want to comment on the politics of the home page but I do wish it didn’t focus on one group. lets focus on variety of art offering a representative overvoew of the fantastic stuff on Red Bubble. after all this is the “front door” for many hitting on the site and we want to show that there is something here for all tastes ..

There is always someone or ones who have a need to get offended by something so that they can arouse their selfish need for attention. It’s just too bad that when we respond in this way they feel power to manipulate, and “handle” the rest of us. I am opposed to that war. The sight of it is not ever good, but art is a reflection of many things. I say if someone does not get the sense that there should be artisitic freedom in most things, and can be expressed in a way they do not feel comfortable with…. they should look elsewhere, and avoid what they do not like looking at. The home page is sure to change eventually.

To all offended by that page: Politcorrectness went mad – this is the same nonsense as global worming, everybody scares everybody with these words without even knowing what they are talking about. To be offended by someone’s believes, ideas, opinions is the same nonsense as to be offended by the rain, or sunshine or snowstorm. If you feel uncomfortable, say your word, your opinion, your ideas, but do not take a pose and do not use the words ‘I am offended’ as the only explanation.
Life is often tough, don’t be offended by such a small thing as a picture, be offended by wars, hunger, killings, tortures. It make more sense to be offended as a human.

I think art has nothing to do with religion, politics or sexual preference. I think sites such as this would be more effective if comments stuck with discussion of art, rather than chit chat, religion or social comment. However, if someone does express themselves, I can comment back with my opinion or just move on to a different page. Personally, I’m more offended by something sappy, than something controversial.

I saw the Homepage yesterday & as an American who lost a beloved nephew in Iraq I wasn’t offended with those images at all. I took them to be as what they were meant to be… a showcase of exceptional art.

I regret that you felt the need to apologize to the community at large for yesterday’s page, just as I regret that apparently some people have taken such offense that they feel the need to threaten to leave the site.

There will always be a certain amount of people with a level of sensibility that means they will be offended by certain materials. It’s a fact of life. But my feeling is that if you allow yourself, i.e. the site, to be held hostage to their censorship then you place RB on a very slippery slope.

RB is first & foremost an art site & as such should encourage all forms of art, even those of a more controversial nature. And I can appreciate the line you all must walk though, to balance all of your members ideas & feelings against what you all are trying to accomplish. That’s not easy I know.

Having said that, I still think censorship is not the way to go & starting to second guess your choices when it comes to deciding which pieces to showcase on the homepage is just proof that something is not right.

RB is a great site & though I suppose problems such as these are just growing pains, I hope we can past them & continue to grow & be even better than we were before.

Looking at the number (1000’s) of posts that some individuals make compared to the content of their portfolios (sometimes they are empty) I think there are some self-appointed net nannas here. Lately, they seem to have formed a net-nanna-network to force lock-downs, suspensions and bans. I think art without ideas is meaningless (which is indeed how I would describe much of their work) : their entire raison d;etre seems to be to force their own small-minded, uniformed reactionary views on the bubble – and that is the shape that it seems to be taking.

Having said all that, for me, RB is invaluable in getting instant feedback from on my work from all across the world. I set very high standards for myself, and love the fact that withing minutes of finishing a work, I can upload it and get input from some very good artists internationally. It’s also a very good archive for me. The forums used to be a very good place to exchange ideas which inform my art but alas, the nannas have changed all that. Some people just love to play the victim. Perhaps the forums just need a category for Politics, with the (unnecessary) warning, “Do not enter here if you are sensitive to robust debate.)

typos: ‘raison d’etre seems to be to force their own small-minded, uninformed r….’
‘instant feedback on my work f….’
etc.
;0

Life is a reality,war enc. I agree with most here we should address reality but with comversations not fighting.
Cannot please everyone all the time. My thoughts if you do not like it go to a new page,change the channel,leave the site, but do not tread on my rights to explore.

There are many thoughts which go through my head about this issue but this is not the place to voice them – so, I accept that it was never the intent to RedBubble to make a political statement as anti-American and for those who who took it as such to accept RBs apology and to get over it; move on, do the christian thing (as America proudly proclaims to be) and turn the other cheek as Jesus says to do.
RedBubble gives us artists an outlet and the freedom to display our art – lets not jeopardise that !:)

I agree with Picketty’s comments….

“Well Peter I don’t want to comment on the politics of the home page but I do wish it didn’t focus on one group. lets focus on variety of art offering a representative overvoew of the fantastic stuff on Red Bubble. after all this is the “front door” for many hitting on the site and we want to show that there is something here for all tastes .”

Good idea. As to whether or not I liked the Homepage, you all don’t much care about my opinion.

Hello Peter, Happy holidays eh?
Now you have to trawl throiugh all the replies, from really generous Artists of great ingenuity and excellence, so I’ll keep it brief. Whatever, and whoever we are, we are all human beings and can be hurt even unintentionally, but having said that, we are all individuals with minds and opinions of our own and I truly believe that not one person on Red Bubble would set out to upset another deliberately. I have been here a couple of weeks and feel absolutely at home and at ease with everyone I have spoken to, have been made to feel that my opinion counts and no-one has ignored me. This is a very special Community.

Peter, I didn’t take offence to the homepage but i can understand and appreciate your apology to the wider RB community.
I’m sorry to hear that your holiday was put on hold while you dealt with RB. I hope and yours enjoyed it for the most part :)

I think that among people, and artists in particular, it is important to remember that Freedom of Expression is as much a right for those who are for as well as against anything they chose. I believe that censorship is aimed at control and eventually leads to lack of Freedom, period. You can take that as far as you want… and study the effects of censorship through cultures, strangling artists, by chosing for them the kind of work they can do… what a shame. In other words, what is the next thing we wont have the right to express? C’mon people.

Can an artist live without the Freedom of expressing whatever feeling/interpretation s/he choses?

Censorship is also preventing each one of us to appreciate art that we may never see.

We are here as a community built to learn from and support one another, regardless of our backgrounds. This work has perhaps arrived at a time when a lesson in tolerance is needed…

There was no offense, and there is no apology needed. I love Americans, but am a pacifist, I hate guns, and violence of any kind. That does not prevent me from being able to appreciate a picture of war, with guns, and guts, and all the dirty stuff that it entails. Those are things that are happening in all of our lives… in the WHOLE WORLD!!! We are influenced by our environment, what makes our environment, and what destroys it. Of course, it should be part of our art work if we chose to…why not?

The controversy for me resides with those who create it, as everything is in the eye of the beholder, no pun intended. What blows my mind is that it’s ok to bear guns, but it’s not OK for someone to post artwork depicting guns ?... that is absolutely mind boggling to me!... I don’t get it!

RB Keep up the good work, I just joined, and am enjoying myself a great deal. The work on this website is absolutely gorgeous, no matter the subject chosen. It is inspiring, regardless of our personal opinions.

My 2 cents
Ratatouille

is it a bad thing to be against the war?
more of these homepages, no sorry !!!!!

No apologies needed in my opinion, and would be really sorry to see if things start to get censored here. Another day and another set of images, cannot appeal to everyone.

Read Danielle Davenport’s post above…. or should I say, “re-read ” it.

The home page in question was not a problem with me…

Is war,any war wrong..yes of course it is …but hey humans are good at it.

The majority of humans love war,you have to be good at something,humans have made war into a fine art.

We love to kill each other,we’ve been doing it for thousands of years,there may never come a time when there is no war.

I guess the end of war would be my image…...Final Conflict

Until then lets all just continue our art.

“May you create well and prosper”

AV

If redbubble starts pandering to those that choose to be offended by what they see or read, there will be no end to it! Where you choose to draw the line will also be offensive to some, Individual free speech is important, I think redbubble will only seen to be bias If it starts censoring content

I think almost anything can be offensive if you want it to be.

art is the fredom of expression no one should censore it the day redbubble put constraints on certain subject will be the day i consider leaving if someone is offended by an item then thats too bad ….....these people that complain should realise that in the free world we have the right to express our views and art as we see fit …...if you dont like something then dont look

Below is part of what I said in my journal entry the other day.
Here I repeat it again.

“The whole thing about art is expressing yourself.
This is why I do what I do.
I love to express myself, whether it be in Oil Painting, Photography, Music, Theatre ( acting ), Garden Design, or just in my love of Medieval History.
And then there is the bonus of being able to share what you are expressing, on programs like Red Bubble.
Thank God we live in a society that allows us to be free with our individual expression”.

I personally am a pretty conservative person in many aspects of my life. I am a veteran and a war veteran. I am joyful when anyone finds a productive way to serve there country. That being said I find too many people too easily offended and too many deliberately trying to offend.

Even though I am far from a fan of several of the pieces that were on main page that day I recognize that the person who created them and the admin that selected them thought of them as art. Many people looking at the pieces I have created will think of them as crap or amateurish.

We all have a right for our visions to be seen here and I applaud anyone selected for the display pages. I enjoy the variety on display and the ability to grow through other artist’s visions.

Keep up the good work team :))

Very well put, Peter. Well done.

Beautiful photo of your daughter Peter.

Yes, we need to be free to express our thoughts and views but just as imporantantly we need to be respectfulful to others

We need to put oursleves in others shoes to see how they may interpret our comments and views. We need to look at hot topics from many perspectives. The world is not black and white and respectful dialogs needs to be encouraged.

WE are not islands, we are a global community.

Paul

thank you for the replay.I don’t think hot topics should banned.They are only someones thoughts on a certain topic.If I don’t like it I don’t have to view thier work.I do feel it shouldn’t be on the Home page.There is enough crativity on here to always have great works featured there to draw in a potenial customer,without offending them…As far as the forum goes maybe a hot topic forum, that way its understond you may be offened before entering it…....

I’m offended by fluffy kittens and will be protesting long and loud when the homepage does a feature on them.

ART ONLY CROSSES THE LINE WHEN SOMEONE DRAWS A LINE.WHO GETS TO DRAW THE LINE?

People need to relax, I liked it. I’m from the USA and I found it not the least bit offensive, our foriegn policy has been terrible under our present administration and it’s not surprising that we’re viewed as war mongering bunch of inbreds. We call ourselves a democracy when in fact we’re a Federal Republic, we go through the whole charade of voting in the primaries, then the “super delegats” nominate who they want, we then go through the whole charade again in the general election to only let the electoral college make the final decision. All Americans should recall the 2000 election, Gore won, Bush became president. Instead of rising up and not letting him take office people just went about their self absorbed little lives. Then he sent us all buy off checks, and squadered the surplus the Clinton administration built. Not only did it get blown, the Republicans tried to give Reagan the credit for it. I’ve been alive for 9 presidential terms and each one that has belonged to the Republican party has brought us poor reception from other nations. So to all you Americans that got offended by the Homepage in question, spend a little less time on getting upset over something so trivial and more time paying attention to what’s going on around you. Get involved, vote for your Congressional representation, because our votes really count in those elections. Then write those Congressmen/woman and try to get the electoral college removed from our presidential elections because getting upset over art isn’t going to change our world wide reception but getting involved in our political process will.

G’day Peter.

You’re a good man – I like your style (pardon the pun).

Realising you’ll be busy when you get back to work, see if you can spare some of your PAID time at work to write a journal about your holiday experiences in Far North Queensland.

You may like to share some of your best holiday moments with those RB members who are on your watchlist.

More strength to you and the team.

Darren Stones.

ps, there’s a new HBO show about the Iraq war that depicts our actual soldiers in a far worse light then any of those pictures actually did. My father was in the US Air Force for twenty years, part during Vietnam War, and I have the utmost respect for our Military and it’s troops. It’s the Commander and Chief that deploys those troops, and lets face it his decisions have been questionable over the last 7+ years. So agian channel your protests in the right direction.

I liked the homepage, I don’t think an apology is necessary Peter. It was good to see a different style of art from the usual stuff featured on the front page.

I think the point that Danielle Davenport and her class miss is that the commentaries are not attacks on all Americans or even on America. For the last eight years, that country has had an administration which has committed war crimes across the globe, refused to sign international conventions on the same, legalised torture and kidnapping, abused prisoners and destroyed a whole nation based on lies. Not to mention the crimes against it’s own people. I think it is fair that people make comment on that situation without individual Americans crying victim. After 9/11 a lot of Americans were asking ‘why do they hate us so much?’ Perhaps the answer is now a little clearer for them, it lies in the administration.

I have a theory
It was because the Home page had no photos on it and everyone got cranky.
If I was you Pete, I wouldn’t go near the US for a while…oooops :)

Thank you for your apology. I will remove my protest. I would hope that redbubble can focus on art and not on politics. It is not good business practice to offend your clients.

I really can’t think of the correct words here to describe how disappointed i am to see a well intentioned person basically try and castrate an art site.

Your ideals and intentions are understandable, but art is not something to slip between the shelves on a greeting card stand in a Wallmart shop.

Although ‘some’ may have seen that homepage as having the slant you’ve complained to RB about, an awful lot probably didn’t. Nor do they probably care either way, other than the quality / ability / ideas of the featured artists.

They call it art, because it’s exactly that… art, and not something that you can or should easily control or place restrictions on.

A tough job Petrer trying to keep ‘most’ RB’ers happy here, but hopefully it’s accepted in the business model also that you can’t, otherwise the tail will start wagging the dog.

Sorry… this text quote didn’t get italicized for some reason in the previous post…

Thank you for your apology. I will remove my protest. I would hope that redbubble can focus on art and not on politics. It is not good business practice to offend your clients.

1. Art is Art
2. Someone will always read something into it
3. We’re here to engage
4. Art talks
5. RB do not deserve so many blatant attacks
6. Lets all be grown-ups now

thank you for the explanation.. however it may seems.. you cannot please everybody.. at least giving an explanation sure helps clear things up.. keep up the good work

Art should be about freedom of expression. If you don’t like it, don’t look at it or alternatively comment on it constructively. The artist may have a purpose or story behind creating the art. I think some people are too sensitive. They judge before finding out the facts. Personally I am more offended by the increase of “happy snaps” popping up on RB. This is a site for art not your personal photo album ~ MOS :)

hot topics and hot heads don’t mix too well huh.

If this were deviantart, the admins would be popping popcorn and watching the brawl.

Your moderation of trolls and the professional atmosphere of this site are the main reasons I prefer it to deviantart. Thank you for keeping the chaos to a minimum!

Sally, you said:
“for the most part all Americans including myself are very
much against this war and the Administration (I have written much about it)...but we
are sensitive as to how our servicemen are portrayed”

As much as I understand that war is a horrible thing for all involved, let’s not forget one very important fact here. US soldiers are all VOLUNTEERS, there (as yet) is no conscription and all people going places to kill others are paid for it. There is no argument here, that is the truth. There are different reasons why they join the army, but at the end of the day they volunteered to do their job for the commander in chief.
When people join the army, what do they expect, being send to a quaint little town to help old ladies cross the streets? I think not.

It is a human right of anybody to criticise others for what and how they do it. It would be a completely different story if the soldiers involved were conscripts, ripped away from their lives to do a job for a government.

here
please note the second paragraph under the homepage clip
Pete is in the right..rock on pete.
its unbelievable to me that RB would do this on purpose..it was a simple accident that coincided with some hot topics

‘Thank you for your apology. I will remove my protest. I would hope that redbubble can focus on art and not on politics. It is not good business practice to offend your clients.

‘I think RB was focusing on art and that comments like the one above turned it into politics…........

I just happened to post a link to RedBubble on my forums yesterday telling them how wonderful this site is and i only recieved one response and that person joined ,now i understand why i didnt get more feedback …......maybe many saw it as un american and took offence who knows …..........

The page was not one of my favourites as im a colour person and anti war but i saw it as art none the less just not my kind of art….........

The more I think about the topic, the more I am disturbed.
I have spent my formative years behind the iron curtain and this incident reminds me of the “good old days”.
Wasn’t it Stalin who introduced the most ferocious arts censorship?
Wasn’t it the Mao’s China, where people were forced to publicly perform “self criticism”?
Is it a little Australian to crawl behind the almighty empire and offer pre-emptive apologies?
Would the same happen on a French or a German site?
Is RB sinking in the sticky much of mediocrity?

Paul, I am deeply saddened and disturbed by the whole issue.

my thoughts exactly Jaybe. art is interpretive in ones eye. not everybody sees the same as you or I. if you are offended by an image on a tee shirt or a card or wall art, maybe you should pull the covers back over your head and stay in bed and off the computer. there are too many different views on the bubble to take them all at face value, bend with the rules. when you can bend the rules, things don’t get broke so often. stiff rules, cause hatred and mallace, closed minds cause wrong intrepretations of the rules. bob

Peter, you said “we are committed to the creation of the features, processes and culture that allow a controversial debate to be conducted on RedBubble – without the eruption of world war three. This is really hard to do on the Internet – because without verbal and non-verbal cues written words are easily misinterpreted.”
I have a suggestion that may or may not be the first time it has been aired (meaning I have not seen it yet on the Internet myself).
When you take a look at this page, for example, people’s responses are all jumbled up, so it is impossible to read a particular thread through, and the original author’s later comments/qualifications/responses are not distinguished in any way.
Threaded discussion forums go some way towards creating a solution to this impasse, but still the original author needs “sticky” comments he or she can place next to the original, yet with hyperlinks to the reader comment(s) that gave rise to their insertion. What I am proposing is more 3D than the present flat or serial structure of a discussion forum, and perhaps is only intellectually possible, not practically possible.
However, from the viewpoint of a reader’s needs, when he or she wishes to study the development of a public discussion, some 3D tree structure, displaying the interrelationship of the various limbs and roots, should not be beyond the ability or imagination of our talented programmers.
My 6 cents worth anyway.
Keith

Who really cares if it was an anti-war statement? That’s just how most people are. Very few people enjoy a war.

Pretty much every controversial thing listed above about that line-up is either agreeing with large percentages of people’s opinions, or is completely ridiculous claims (like it being anti-US… WTF did that come from?)

Anti American??!! As one of the people who were featured on said page, i’d just like to say mine was a statement of ANTI-WAR INVOLVEMENT and that at this rate, soon the war will reach my backyard like it has reached Americas backyard. MY BACKYARD… in AUSTRALIA! and yes, I have very strong views about AUSTRALIA’S involvement. So put your flags away, it’s not all about America. By the way, for whatever reason my design was chosen, thank you RB.

I don’t object to people smoking but I don’t want them blowing smoke in my face.

If RB gave “equal time” and posted “PRO-LIFE/ ANTI-ABORTION:” propaganda on the Homepage and we called it “Art” you can bet your bippy the liberals would be screamin’ at the top of their lungs against it…..

Well written, Peter. I wish everyone would just be nice all the time… there’s no need to be nasty. Life is short, it should be happy and peaceful… always ;D

Your daughter is gorgeous and I hope your holiday was the same (gorgeous). I look forward to your journal and all the photos ;D

i think there’s enough war and hate in the world and promoting visual representations of war and violence will not make the world a nicer place it’s nasty enough as it is, showing that page was not very well thought out at all. Also as some1 else mentioned i’m sick of seeing the same style on home page too this is exactly what happens if you have the same judge year in and year out at an exhibition. every member of bubble should recieve a turn of thier page being the home page or choosing a cohesive body of work from all bubblers. Having the same group of people choosing will definately leave us with a home page that will be the same styles over and over and over.

I commend you Peter, and RB on your ability to handle these issues. The state of all things on RB is just a reflection of the state of the world at large….and whether that reflects well or not, depends on whether we all need to work on ourselves first and foremost, our tolerance, openness, forgiveness and compassion, and let it grow from there..Thanks RB…

What would art be without “hot Topics” How boring! There are similar overseas sites that I,ve had my work removed for showing cartoon boobs. (eyeroll) I think its good for people to be offended every once and a while, lets them know there alive!!

It’s a sad day for Art and freedom of expression. RB cannot represent itself as a serious Art site by allowing a few to dictate to others what type of Art ought to be shown on its site. RB has now set a precedent which will allow any kind of community to build a protest over anyone’s art.

Today ought to be known as black bubble day…

Anyone who is pro-war doesn’t belong on RedBubble.

Couldn’t help making the point that this topic is so ironical. People who state, by strong inference, that there should be no politics in art, are the very same people who initiated the most overtly political debate on RedBubble.

Beware the Fluffy Duck Brigade RB, they seem to be here because they have, quite literally, a 2 dimensional view of art – it has to be pretty or very pretty.

Sure there is a place on a site like this for people who have that bi-dimensional view of art. Good on ‘em I say. However, it becomes offensive when the Fluffy Duck Brigade demand adherence to their political views as well.

I was devastated to read your apology. I think this is a big step backwards for RB. Part of what I’ve found refreshing about RB is it’s “feel” – a sense that the artists that use it can use their art to express everything from the mundane to the profound to the confronting. Your apology for one of your best Homepages deals that a crushing blow because of the implications that this will no longer be the case at least as far as Homepage is concerned. So what if some people are offended – since when did the ethos that offending some people is bad become so dominant in our increasingly bland and anaesthetised culture? Do you realise how close to Yahoo’s position on not “offending” the Chinese by helping them locate dissidents who use Yahoo this is. You are now on a very slippery slope my friends.

Yes I understand RB has a commercial imperative. But that isn’t incompatible with remaining true to a central tenet of art – that it doesn’t just have to be appealing to people – it can also powerfully challenge our beliefs and the way we see the world so that our lives are richer for having seen it.

And I’m not just talking about “liberal”or “progressive” art. For example I believe passionately in a woman’s right to be able to have an abortion if she wishes but I would welcome a Homepage of art as good, powerful and eloquent as the one you are apologising for by those who feel the opposite way. Challenge my beliefs -show me some good art that really gets me thinking about why I hold this belief and others. I may end up reaffirming my belief. I may change it. But either way it will get me thinking and feeling in a way I wouldn’t have if I hadn’t seen it.

If we continue to censor ourselves, if we continue to smother cries from the heart that wish to speak and to challenge with sincerity and integrity, whether progressive of conservative, then we kill our imaginations and smother our spirits and deny the very essence of what it is to be human.

There is a point a lot of people apparently have missed here….
the sensitivities to the topics have inflamed people on all sides and what has occurred in a number of situations lately (not just the war topic) is that there have been a large number of undeniably rude insults and people saying that they are better than the other people….it’s like a war in itself….for God’s sake, whether you be an ‘intellectual’ or ‘uneducated’ or ‘whatever else you maybe’....take it from me….the behaviour of some people here on RB is inexcusable. I have been shocked by the scathing fingerpointing remarks. It is ONE thing to voice your opinion, granted…it is another thing to scream and shout and bully others because one thinks they are less brilliant or less intelligent, simply because they don’t conform to one’s own point of view. There is a difference between ‘freedom of expression’ and expressing your views publically to ‘intolerant disrespect of others feelings and belief systems’. This is why we have the law, and why we have to have systems in place, whether we like it or not. So that when things become personal attacks, we can draw the line.

A lot of the above condones the front page that is the subject of the controversy, and I have no opinion, i’m sitting on the fence…........my only opinion is this…...stop attacking one another in the verbal context through the journals and through bmails. This is absolutely inexcusable, no matter who you are, no matter what side you are on.

I didn’t see it as ‘anti Iraq war, anti American and anti US soldiers fighting the Iraq war’.

I saw it as artists just trying to express their feeling and emotions in a visual manner.
Art is about expressing oneself after all…

Shayne…. you have made your point very loud and clear and I GET IT… I understand that you dont “like ” the american administration… many of us here dont either (including me). You can get your point across without calling names or trying to belittle… thats all Im asking is for a little respect just for being a HUMAN BEING…. has nothing to do with being american. So please, just be decent.
To Col Finnie: again… you missed the boat on what this was all about. < sigh > People need to quite taking sides.. this isnt about censorship… I think everyone on RB is here for the art, no matter whether we personally like a piece or not. The real issue was the incredibly defamatory remarks being thrown around so loosley, NOT THE IMAGES!

YES! Thank you Karin Taylor!!!!

I agree with Karin – at no stage should any of us be threatening or attacking each other – in the forums, our journals or by bubble mail.

The drama of the last few days has made me incredibly sad. I do not support censorship and I do not support ripping other artists to shreds.

thank you Natalie

I agree with a previous poster – get a bunch of admin on RB to find the best images for the home page, instead of just the one person doing it (inferred by that poster. I wouldn’t know.) Then put them up and hang the worry people will be judging it. Sure they will, but heck aren’t we all artists, a lot of us are super-sensitive, all with our own opinions, etc etc. Surely someone has to make a decision what’s on the main page. Well let them make it and let’s stop tippy-toeing around and get down to the simple business of enjoying ourselves and loving our own work and that of others. I’ve only been here a few weeks and I love RB, but I’m beginning to think an apology wasn’t really necessary after all, even though it’s all very nice and warms my little heart.

An apology is sooo bloody wrong. Why did these minority people feel the homepage was anti-america when it was anti-war? Hrmmm…..

I think a lot of things could an can be said and argued about and denied (Past, Present and Future mistakes made).

There is always be two completely different spectrum’s for people to view things.
E.g. Is it Art or Pornography?

I think there are always so many battles to be fighting for.
Some things get blown way out of proportion.
And completely essential things get pushed aside, put under the mat and forgotten about for another day.
Could all the energy spent from these past few days in hurtful and I’m going to say it HAFEFUL acts towards and at certain people on RB could have been put to better use, like helping to raise a little money for your local veterans club? (Aussies have RSL)

No country is perfect.
I’m from Australia.
I love Australia.
I laugh at people from other countries who make fun of Australia, because in reality they don’t know how great it is to live here.
But then again we take the piss out of other countries as well. But that’s in our nature, we learn to laugh at ourselves – we hope other people will join in on the game.

My two bits worth…..

I agree with Karin also!!

I saw the homepage and I didnt even blink twice at it other than the fact it was all black and white stencils and drawing which I took to be the theme…and I liked it!

Can I ask, (because I’m blonde! and have no idea sometimes) how have the images been tied to American Soldiers?? Were the titles American related?

If not, there are numerous countries around the world fighting their own battles with their own soldiers within their own countries and their neighbouring countries, soldier images are EVERYWHERE!!!......Its absolutely STUPID to assume and get offended by images that could be anyone anywhere!!!

“redbubble” should stand by it’s staff who it appoints to editorial positions .. that is what the front page selection amounts to .. if i was this staff member I would have felt humiliated and disgraced by your ‘apology’.

it is very sad if 8 pictures together displayed briefly (i think every rb user has noticed that the front page images change every few hours) are disallowed and condemned not only by a bunch of rabid politicos, but also by the ‘superior’ staff at rb, regardless of what ‘statement’ they make.

is this an art site? if so, then anything here should be interpreted as ‘art’, not as ‘an attack on X’ ... art is meant to invoke reflection on the part of the viewer .. therefore it CANNOT and DOES NOT EVER make a unilateral ‘statement’ of meaning and purpose.

When people are intending to promote a defined agenda, they do so in a much less ambiguous and much more persistent fashion than mixing one or two images into a collage and putting it up for three hours on an art site.

I think it is important for everyone to remember that we are all entitled to our own opinions, and free speech. If some one expresses an opinion that offends somebody else, maybe the offended person needs to realize that in the end, it is only an opinion, and should be seen that way, and not be taken to heart.
If we all thought the same, and shared the same opinions, think of how boring this website would be, think of how awful the world would be.
It is our differences that make us human…
If we were all the same we would be more robots than human beings.
So next time somebody says, creates (etc) something that offends, instead of being angry at them, rejoice that they have a different point of view, rejoice that they are not exactly the same as you, celebrate your differences, for it is the differences that make you individual.
I think banning “hot topics” on redbubble would be similar to banning freedom of speech. Not suggesting that that is the intent of the managers.
What is art if not an expression? And what is an expression if it is boxed and confined?
Art is one of the highest forms of freedom. Redbubble gives people the opportunity to share that with others. And that is a very special thing indeed.
Controversy is indeed something that goes hand in hand with art!
Think of all the great artists?!! You think it was there conformity that made them so great?
Anyway… Basically I believe art is freedom, and should be kept that way. If it offends, just remember that if you believe strongly enough in the thing it is “attacking,” or “offending” it won’t get to you, or make you angry.
I wonder if anyone will read this? lol
Peace to all
-Lila

Oh, and one more little thing: I reckon the artists who create controversial works should be able to handle the fact that people might be offended, and even though I don’t believe that people should abuse the artists, I do believe that the artist should be able to handle these “abusive” comments.
This isnt in relation to this incident, but more on a generalized level.
It is only my point of view, and it wasn’t my intention to hurt anyone!
(: Lila

Treating others the same way that you want to be treated goes a long way.

I hope that your return to the freezing south wasn’t too bad Peter!

I found nothing at all offensive about the home page in question but I find it offensive and very very worrying that a small group of outraged americans can hold a gun to your collective heads and demand that all people here at RB conform to their narrow interpretations of what art is and is not….... first the person threatening lawsuits to cover up there own cheating and now some one who has been here five minutes protesting about some imagined slight against americans…...

this is a really disturbing trend RB…... if you keep it up you end up with art site that specializes in cute kittens and over saturated sunsets and that’s all that’s allowed….. and that will drive away the real artists so quickly you won’t know what hit you’s…....

be bold and stand up for free speach and good art ….and stop apologizing for other peoples narrow minds….. it makes you look weak Peter….

well said Peter. Politics and art are inseparable and healthy comment makes polititians accountable for their actions. Art is about free expression and those that are offended should simply put their expression over in reply (visually). RB can remain impartial by stating that no homepage represents the (political) views of the administrators and facilitators of RB. PLACE THIS OR SIMILAR STATEMENT ON THE HOMEPAGE to cover yourselves for legal purposes.
I love RB and the transparency and sharing of communications that makes it the voice of artists from all perspectives.

Hey, let’s just lynch whoever chose the images! And the artists too! And anyone who liked them!
A lynch mob, that would the traditional way of dealing with “troublemakers”.

Hey, it’s over now!
Lets take a deep breath and get on with things!
:)
Roll on RB!

I agree with rosepepper. I don’t see any problem with that home page !! It’s ART and we are artist’s and ART is about free expression, yes ! Who the hell complained ?? offensive !? It’s just a collection of images by artist’s concerning there views on war. I find the TV more offensive than this every friggin NIGHT !!! Thats why i don’t watch it much …......................................
Again ! What Rosepepper say’s about a statement on the page could be the way.
Censorship SUX !! And ART should challenge that, that’s part of it’s job !!!!!!!!!
Just like the Bill Henson issue, this is just annoying and blown out of proportion !! I don’t want to have to start worrying about offending people on here, it would ruin the site ! I don’t think there was anything to apologize for !!???? It’s ART !! You didn’t go out of your way to offend and shock people and if you did so with good reason and can back it up, well all is good !!!
Have a great day.

may i suggest that when your boss, the ex-army-officer asks ‘did you post anti-war images on our front page’ it’s natural to lie, and say ‘oh they’re just sillhouettes’.

if this is rb’s attitude to it’s staff and to the world at large, that is very sad, and it looks to me like many of us are better finding another medium for our expressions. thanks for offering, pete, but, gee .. fuck this.

i was initially really excited that this site seemed to be professional, open (deviantart is a pita to get anything published on for newbies) and stylish, with real art.

i was even more impressed when i found it employs some of the real artists.

now i start to think the red dots are the carrot and you have been bringing out the stick of late … and i think we begin to see how it is that violent images are ok while nudes are less so .. especially those with no associated violence.

<pukes>

well, that said, you want to rid of me, you’ll have to ban me :) knitting site it may be, but for now, it serves a purpose for me. but it saddens me greatly to see that this is at heart a pro-war, pro-violence, misogynistic site, where artists have been employed to give the impression of free expression.

the frequent assertions that ‘rb stands behind its artists’ give the clue .. if they really did, they’d stfu and let the artists speak for themselves. sorry guys, sorry to any of the local art scene that i might offend by saying these things, and well, a big fuck you to any future ‘employers’, government agents and military personel who might look into my own life on reading this … my own personal career as it is is non-existent already because i strongly disagree with your corporate army prison agenda, so who gives a fuck. anyone who looks at my work can see that it is not because i am incapable that i can’t find work in your system, and anyone who cares know people like you stink for it.

I don’t always like what I see on the home page, but the variety of stuff that passes through there has introduced me to some great new work. This controversy is really interesting because I know of one person here who deleted their account a little while back due to work they saw as pro-Iraq war, It’s all up to how people choose to interpret it, I guess.

What I do appreciate is freedom for myself and others-
to create art
to express opinions
to do this without fear

I don’t want censorship, particularly political censorship, on this site. Images of book-burning in Nazi Germany popped into my head when reading a couple of recent entries. I would rather know what people really think than bury my head in the sand and live in some little la-la land.

I’ve already strung meself up BrainCandy. Can’t you hear the creaking of the rope!?

Oh yeah, let’s separate Art from Politics. Lets eat all the biscuits and leave the pretty, empty tin.

Way to fucking go.

It’s fine to say sorry, but it would be wrong to stop.

RB, you shouldn’t apologise! Art isn’t just fluffy bunnies and pretty landscapes. Art should push the boundaries, be controversial, challenge the viewer’s perceptions … The home page in question should not have been pulled. Don’t give in to the few who want to force their opinions on everyone else.

And Danielle Daven… please don’t bore me with patronising sighs.

I have already posted here that personal attacks are out of bounds. If the personal attacks were the only issue, why was the home page taken down? Somewhere on RB a shit-fight started between a bunch of people. It was none of my business and certainly shouldn’t have the potential of impinging on my enjoyment of RB as it potentially may do. If some wood-duck wants to have a go at me, I’ll deal with it as I see fit. If I’m incapable of doing something about it I ignore ‘em. If I wet my pants and run to Mummy for help then I wear the consequences of that weak attitude. In other words it’s my responsibility. I’m accountable for my own actions.

I really would like to know what caused all this BS. All I can get from what’s happened is that a home page went up, a few people who I assume to be conservatives or reactionaries got their knickers in a knot over it and somehow, somewhere a shitfight started. Next minute we are hearing about moderating “hot” topics (i.e. topics on things art has treated as it’s life blood for centuries). I read between the lines there was some talk of litigation. What a crock if that is true. RB has no editorial responsibilities for posts by individuals. And in any event, the vast majority of people post under a non-de-plume. Ya cant be defamed if who no one knows who you are! PS: I post under my real name. Sue me.

Well said dimsim. “The truth is “hate speech” only to those who have something to hide.”—Michael Rivero

This web site should continue to be a window to all, without us worrying about such hot topics and thus closing the door on some of us. We all live here on this small rock and their is so much diversity in charactor and beleifs that it would be impossible for us to ever calculate the rest of the worlds interpretations, whether it be a picture or a blank page.

I love what RB does.

I thought art was about expressing yourself-and it’s usually (or used to be) a good place to express an opinion in reaction to what is happening in the world-after WW’s there was a lot of anti war stuff-and so should it be now.

People don’t want to be walked on or killed. I think people are evolving and becoming more vocal about being anti war.

In the past, the unfortunate thing was those fighting the wars were conscripted. (see Vietnam). Now people choose to enlist and hopefull we become more conscious of the fact that by choosing to become a solider, you choose to be part of killing someone else, if those who decisions they(the soliders) choose to listen to decide they should. Why shouldn’t we protest these decisions? They affect innocent people. Is it justified because by killing some innocent people, as well as those they are targeting, they protect other innocent people. Which innocent people deserve more protection?

More over, while people feel it’s the soliders who cop it (yes, they choose that role, they should cop it), the leaders are the ones who direct their fire. And they will also be criticised for going to war. If we vote them in, and we don’t want to go to war, then democracy is failing. I was personally very disappointed after so many of us protested the Iraq war, that the government followed the US. It’s not all about Amercians! We Australians are also anti war and anti Iraq. Why shouldn’t we be proud of that?

I’m personally glad that we can show our opinion and I’m not sorry if someone’s feelings are hurt if we say no to war. Feelings we can get over. People getting killed-that’s a bit harder. Surely if we agree to speak up now, and get over the feelings, wars will be avoided. And we can make art about something else besides war. WE can celebrate being alive and here.

I’m sure in some people’s minds we are here because people get killed. Can’t you see the irony in that?

We are here because we are difference and accept that we all have the same right to be.

It amazes me how anyone could be so rude as to be fine with purposely offending others. If I decided to post a picture of someone taking a knife to a child you would all scream bloody murder. Of course it’s easy to see and understand how that would not only offend but incite a community to frenzy.

What gets blurred is when you do things that you know are borderline but decide aw screw it, I don’t care, I’m posting it anyway. Oh sure it’s something you may feel very passionate about but you have to know that there are others who feel just as strongly with a complete opposite view.

I’ll bet if I said I thought Bush was a savior half of RB would convulse and on the flip side half of RF would send flowers. The point is the comment would be offensive to half of RB and if I were going to make a statement like that it would only be to incite a riot or to see just how far I could tweak those who I know would take offense.

The point is not whether you consider it art or not or even what your convictions are. The point is learning to get along with others even when you vehemently disagree with them. You can’t have it both ways. Yet so many are virile with their comments clamoring for anyone who disagrees with them to leave RB and go to hell. Those same people are the ones yelling about peace and love and how bad war is. What hypocrisy! You either believe in brotherly love or you don’t. But don’t hide behind your supposed righteous indignation that your precious “art” has been rejected by several of your peers and use that as a smoke screen to veil your vitriol and hatred. That’s as big a lie as it gets.

The real point is that you do not have a right to push your views in the face of whoever you feel like. You’re comments about not going to the home page if you don’t like it is just as unreasonable as censoring is. Often times the home page is filled with things I do like to see but the point is, it should be an individual’s choice to see what they wish to see. Let the individual choose and this whole matter is a moot point. The only ones who will be offended then are those who cannot push their views on those who do not wish to see them.

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, just because you have the right to free speech does not guarantee you an audience. I heard the analogy used so I’ll use it, you don’t like fluffy kittens, you find then offensive and I don’t like poufy dogs they offend me. Each of our individual choices is to have the right NOT to view that which offends us. I do not need to see more picture or artistic interpretations of poufy dogs any more than you do fluffy kittens to know what we each already know. I will never like poufy dogs and you will never like fluffy kittens. And what is so wrong with that? What is so wrong with having a choice as to what we view or don’t view? If you really are all for freedom of speech then you must also be for freedom of choice.

To go to either extreme, censoring or removing choice are wrong; one stifles creativity and the other stifles the spirit when instead we could just be leaving the choice and the burden entirely on the viewer. And if that were the case then the fault would be firmly the viewers. And for those who want to engage in enlightened and intellectual debate you would have your little section of the world all to yourselves and those who just want to see fluffy kittens can do so in ignorant bliss. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me.

Well said

John 403

Richardredhawk

and mostly Lila Alias (her real name lol) who is 17 years old and that makes her an aussie teenager , well Lila if u are what we are producing as a nation we are in good hands and your parents must be very proud of u …..........

no moderations or censoring please Peter ….............

and i find it ironic that a request for censorship came from those who profess to abhor it

and please stand by your wonderful staff …...............

“The point is learning to get along with others even when you vehemently disagree with them.” – yes.
So why are you so upset? The learning didn’t go too well?
Or is it just an advice to others to learn to get along with your view of the world?

Oopsadaisy ;o)

@BrainCandy,

You obviously can’t read or you didn’t take time to read the whole comment. Or perhaps you just read what you wanted tp.

How’s this?

I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, just because you have the right to free speech does not guarantee you an audience. I heard the analogy used so I’ll use it, you don’t like fluffy kittens, you find then offensive and I don’t like poufy dogs they offend me. Each of our individual choices is to have the right NOT to view that which offends us. I do not need to see more picture or artistic interpretations of poufy dogs any more than you do fluffy kittens to know what we each already know. I will never like poufy dogs and you will never like fluffy kittens. And what is so wrong with that? What is so wrong with having a choice as to what we view or don’t view? If you really are all for freedom of speech then you must also be for freedom of choice.

To go to either extreme, censoring or removing choice are wrong; one stifles creativity and the other stifles the spirit when instead we could just be leaving the choice and the burden entirely on the viewer. And if that were the case then the fault would be firmly the viewers. And for those who want to engage in enlightened and intellectual debate you would have your little section of the world all to yourselves and those who just want to see fluffy kittens can do so in ignorant bliss. Sounds like the best of both worlds to me.

I don’t like your interpretations of poufy dogs or having them shoved down my throat. Capish now?

I think I agree with you Bob. Fluffy kittens or fluffy dogs. Don’t like it? move on. good idea.

Maybe, maybe I am a bit fluffed-up with too much reading…
Sorry if I misunderstood, but I still don’t. I’ll get it later hopefully.

And yet, you seem clearly upset about the front page of RB:
“I run a site of my own and I know that what gets placed on the front page is not an oversight. I do not wish to be associated with a site that allows such open hatred to be the rule of the day.”

“Open hatred”? where, someone is of a different opinion to you – “The point is learning to get along with others even when you vehemently disagree with them.” Accept it, they may be wrong, but are entitled to their opinion, aren’t they?

Removing your folio is your right, and I respect you for making a stand.
But you could go the full hog and cancel your account (I am not advising, or suggesting, just mentioning). To me (and god knows I’ve been wrong before) the act of suspending your folio seems like a grab for attention and grand-standing.

Samantha,

Sort of, what I am really saying is RB should allow us to filter work at a personal level. Leave it up to the individual as to what they do or don’t want to see. For instance, using my example, I don’t want to see work from the poufy dogs group so I add it to my filter list. And; I never see work or journals from that group. I’m happy and the poufy dogs groups is happy because they don’t have me in their forums saying how ugly I think poufy dogs are.

To me it makes far more sense then talk of censoring art or saying that we should stay away from the home page.

BrainCandy,

See the above comment, maybe that will do it.

to bob mckain: Goya’s Saturn eating his child one of the greatest works ever .. are you a troll? your words: “If I decided to post a picture of someone taking a knife to a child you would all scream bloody murder.”

yes, people react strongly to strong images. what we need is strong support for the understanding that THEY ARE IMAGES. Just because the picture shows saturn eating his child, does not mean the boogeyman will get you, or your children.

As for grabbing attention, no not at all. If I wanted attention I would have reinstated all of my work again. No, this is a principle for me and just as those who are protesting the war did so with their art I am using the only method left to me, which is remove my art in protest.

What I am after is choice, my freedom of choice to view what I choose.

I don’t like your interpretations of poufy dogs or having them shoved down my throat.

For the life of me I can not comprehend how the mere act of uploading an image is shoving down anyone’s throat.

@dimsim,

I couldn’t disagree more. You assume that I should be coerced into viewing the work. I have no need to fill my head with that which I consider trash. Now, in your mid it may be a work of fantastic artistic enlightenment but in my mind it is trash.

You call me intolerant because I refuse to view it and I would say you are dictatorial for insisting I do. The fact is, it is my choice and if I do not have a method of filtering then I have no choice.

“I don’t want to see work from the poufy dogs group so I add it to my filter list.”

OK, we capish. Here’s how the filter actually works.

You don’t want to see work of the type that occaisionally appears on redbubble. You add redbubble to your filter list. Done.

“I do not wish to be associated with a site that allows such open hatred to be the rule of the day.” and yet you choose to be associated with it – strange!

Explain “open hatred” as opposed to “being of a different opinion”.

Helen,

Let me quote a previous post, they do tend to get lost:

Sort of, what I am really saying is RB should allow us to filter work at a personal level. Leave it up to the individual as to what they do or don’t want to see. For instance, using my example, I don’t want to see work from the poufy dogs group so I add it to my filter list. And; I never see work or journals from that group. I’m happy and the poufy dogs groups is happy because they don’t have me in their forums saying how ugly I think poufy dogs are.

To me it makes far more sense then talk of censoring art or saying that we should stay away from the home page.

Bob: oh, you’ve seen saturn eating his kid before, it’s very famous. I can’t make you look at it, but you’ve seen it. And it didn’t hurt. And it didn’t hurt when you saw that fluffy poodle, nor when you saw a bunch of anti-war piccies on the front of redbubble, and furthermore, when you did, and you decided you regretted seeing them and that God shoulda warned you so you didn’t click, well it was still the absolute natural right of the editor in charge of the redbubble front page to put them there, no matter how anti-american they might have been (and right now I’m wishing they had been!)

Peter was absolutely wrong to apologise, and make up excuses for this, and to back your insane arguments that these are hateful images and anti-american, and he should have said in a clear steady voice, NO THESE ARE NOT HATEFUL OR ANTIAMERICAN BUT IF THEY WERE AND WE PUBLISHED THEM THAT WOULD BE OUR RIGHT AND WE WOULD NOT APOLOGISE.

BrainCandy,

I’m sure you’ve read many of the journals and forums that lead up to this. Do I really need to spell it out? Just look at this thread and tell me you can’t see it.

“I think the photographer who cannot handle the heat …get out now and leave the other artists and photographers to get on with their work.”

And others, is this not hatred? If not hen what is?

for bob (OH NOES DON”T CLICK! ;)

And see, dimsim is just full of it.

He can’t even acknowledge or conceive that there should be a point of view different than his. Who is really feeling threatened here.

You don’t want to see work of the type that occaisionally appears on redbubble. You add redbubble to your filter list. Done.

dimsim,

Please, is that the best you can do. You can’t engage in a meaningful dialog so you just resort to intimidation?

Sorry, you came to the wrong person, won’t work.

Interesting concept. Imagine that the artist does not belong to any groups. How are you going to block them then?

Actually, unless someone is on your watch list, gets featured, or you go looking for a type of art, you aren’t going to see it. I think some folks won’t be satisfied until everything except sunsets and flowers is banned. There’s nothing wrong with sunsets and flowers. Just saying . . .

No Bob, I can’t see hatred at all.
All I see is a commentary on militaristic imperialism, aggression based on lies and deception, as well as well executed graphic work.

Do you deny people not agreeing with your view of the world? You preach ”...learning to get along with others even when you vehemently disagree with them.” and yet call their point of view “open hatred”.
Your argument disappears in a puff of logic.

Helen,

Unless I am mistaken work on the home page is chosen by group hosts. So unless I was specifically looking for something I wouldn’t find it.

Hmm, did I miss something, that is exactly what I would like.

“He can’t even acknowledge or conceive that there should be a point of view different than his” NOW YOU’VE MADE ME LAUGH!

Brian,

I don’t believe I said anything about militarism or aggression. I did say and my point still is that I want my freedom of choice as to what I view.

What I am met with with is if you don’t like then get the hell off. I don’t know that sounds a little hateful to me. What gives you any more right to be on RB than I? I see no logic to go up in any poof or cloud.

@Bob

Peter wrote: The staff of RB take it in turns to select the home page. . . .

I imagine that on occasion a group is featured on the home page and the host would select the images. Well anyway, good luck with that filter campaign.

Helen,

Thanks for the civility even when I know you don’t agree.

It’s B R A I N if you don’t mind, and dense… am I? Running out of arguments, are we?
Calling me stupid doesn’t work with me.

I think you are getting tangled up in your fancy footwork:

“What I am met with with is if you don’t like then get the hell off. I don’t know that sounds a little hateful to me. What gives you any more right to be on RB than I?”

I did not say you should go, Bob, you did: “I do not wish to be associated with a site that allows such open hatred to be the rule of the day.” – your words, not mine, don’t get confused.

Ahhhhh…..it’s so nice to be a laid back Aussie… I’m off to put a snag on the barbie … and CHILL!! ;-)

Brain,

No you didn’t say it others did. Either way it is what those of us who see it differently are being met with. I did not at any point start this or start calling people names. I took a very mild and pacifist approach. I removed my work in protest and for that you think I am spouting imperialist aggression. That in itself is hate talk, meant to get some sort of rise out of me.

I believe you were the first on to engage is silliness I simply returned the favor. Or would you like to say you weren’t trying to poke fun and find a nerve?

““He can’t even acknowledge or conceive that there should be a point of view different than his” NOW YOU’VE MADE ME LAUGH!”

As for my words ““I do not wish to be associated with a site that allows such open hatred to be the rule of the day.” – your words, not mine, don’t get confused.”

Tell me where does that give you the impression of imperialist aggression? You don’t want anyone to protest something they disagree with? My, how hypocritical. Let me post “art” that offends you but don’t sare protest or say anything about it?

Yep, I follow that logic.

rightasrain,

Now that I would like to know about what is a barbie, I’ve heard the term once but nothing to associate it with.

As an Australian who has a father and a brother permanently traumatised by their service in the armed forces (Vietnam and Iraq respectively), I am solidly, unashamedly and unreservedly against the current invasion of Iraq. I saw the front page selection above as primarily a selection of great art by Red Bubble members, THEN I saw the political theme. If my mind can see it as art and not offensive propaganda, why can’t others?

I don’t hate Americans, I hate their leaders. My grandmother helped to clear the concentration camps after WWII and despite what she saw, always taught me that all Germans were never our enemy, only their leaders. I carry that through in any country’s people.

I would NEVER condone personal bashing of people for what their country does, but I would also NEVER apologise for having such strong work on the front page. Australia I think has a great reputation for being publicly dissident, and I like to think RB is a factor of that.

Having said that, if the front page consisted of images portraying animal abuse, I would be offended. But I wouldn’t complain, I’d just acknowledge and move on. We should be offended by animal abuse, by war, by human trafficking and all the other horrors that humans commit. But instead of complaining that we’ve been exposed to it, why not try being grateful to be reminded of how lucky we are that we are not a part of it? This is a place for art, and some of the best art punches you in the guts.

War has never been so real to those who aren’t directly involved as this one is now. Our modern media shows us all the sides of war that previous generations never saw. If just one of the images above causes someone to re-think their support of war, it’s a job well done. Even if they only serve to remind you what exists beyond our comfortable homes, it’s a job well done.

Well done, Red Bubble.

Bob, you said: “I did say and my point still is that I want my freedom of choice as to what I view.”
You do have this freedom.
But that doesn’t mean that the front page MUST be customised to suit YOU. If it was to be sanitised to suit everyone, 100% of the time, it would be 50% grey, and that’s not likely to happen.

here are some apt links

BBC Editorial Guidelines topic: Editorial Independence

The Cambridge Student FAQ: Editorial Independence

Editor’s Weblog: Newsroom priorities, threats to editorial independence

Canadian Association of Journalists: Draft Policy Paper on Editorial Independence

Peter, I think if you are an influential part-owner of this company (I guess you are, as a founding member) that it is somewhat dishonest to discribe yourself as ‘bus driver’ and ‘administrator’ ... some of us may actually believe that kind of joke, rather than do a background check just to see if it is crap. I don’t know anything about you apart from what you say in this article, what you have in your art, and what I found from a single audio interview, but I disagree with your stance on this issue, and I stand by my statements above which you probably find highly offensive, but then you probably don’t realise just how far you have gone to tread on what people used to understand as the responsibilities of a publisher.

I absolutely stand by the right of redbubble to determine what it publishes, but I absolutely disagree that the person you had appointed to do that should find themselves second-guessed in order for you to cow-to to a bunch of gibbering fanatics.

Simeon Scott

“I took a very mild and pacifist approach. I removed my work in protest and for that you think I am spouting imperialist aggression.”
A WHAT? ! ?
I said no such thing. I said: “All I see is a commentary on militaristic imperialism, aggression based on lies and deception, as well as well executed graphic work.” – that is in the works which were shown on the main page. THE WORKS ARE the commentary, not anything YOU said or did – you misunderstood.

Brain,

My apologies then because I did completely misunderstand you on that one. Somehow I took your comment as suggesting I was engaging in imperialist aggression and that just wasn’t working for me.

“Or would you like to say you weren’t trying to poke fun and find a nerve?

““He can’t even acknowledge or conceive that there should be a point of view different than his” NOW YOU’VE MADE ME LAUGH!””

I wrote the above as, indeed it brought a smirk to my face.
The way I understand the whole theme is that you protest, accuse the artists and RB of promoting “open hatred” refuse to acknowledge that people have the right to disagree with you, your views, your country’s political stance; and yet say that dimsim ”...can’t even acknowledge or conceive that there should be a point of view different than his”.
You must admit, that is Monty Python’esque.

It was extremely anti-American of RedBubble to attack the principle of free speech in this manner. George W should round up a posse of the willing and invade RedBubble forthwith.

Jon – HEAR HEAR!
And BTW, thanks for ALL your work ;-)

Oh now don’t insult one of my favorites.

As for Simeon, he was being just as obtuse as he claims I am and in my view that is refusing to accept the fact that we aren’t going to agree.

The theme of my protest is that I should have the choice to view what I want and not what I don’t..

Idon’t subscribe to the notion that the home page would be 40% grey because I work with developers. The truth is the home page and filtering can work any way it’s programmed to work. It would mean that what featured on the home page would be sifted to your liking. If you are honest you will admit that there are things you don’t care to see or be bothered with. That is what I am suggesting.

As for the hateful talk, its been just as bad on both sides. While I am firmly passionate about my country you never heard me saying or clamoring for censorship only for my choice. That is neither hateful or suggestive of removing anyones freedom of expression unless you construe freedom of expression to mean I must view anything anyone wants to put up. If that is the description of freedom of expression then I’ll be damned, someone changed the dictionary on me.

Bob,

OK mate, we’re gonna have to rewind a bit, I hate helping turn this guy’s homepage into your own private soapbox, but it looks like you’ve done that all by yourself. I feel forced to clarify your attacks on me, which are not spelled out by you well enough for others to understand (importantly, including me).

> And see, dimsim is just full of it.
>
> He can’t even acknowledge or conceive that there should be a point of view different
> than his. Who is really feeling threatened here.

Um, what are you referring to here? I don’t see it.

>> You don’t want to see work of the type that occaisionally appears on redbubble. You
>> add redbubble to your filter list. Done.
>
> Please, is that the best you can do. You can’t engage in a meaningful dialog so you
> just resort to intimidation?

Where is the intimidation? What is wrong with my comments that make them meaningless or one-sided? or do you see some other requirement for ‘meaningful dialogue’? perhaps it’s the lack of a sane, responding partner, but that is hardly my fault …

“That is neither hateful or suggestive of removing anyones freedom of expression unless you construe freedom of expression to mean I must view anything anyone wants to put up. If that is the description of freedom of expression then I’ll be damned, someone changed the dictionary on me.”

Gee, you’re still not getting it. The front page is redbubble’s. Their right to freedom of expression is they can put whatever the fuck they want on their web site.

You can’t. This site is not yours. It’s theirs.

Your and my works here are tolerated by the grace of the redbubble site. This site is not published by the US government, so you have no recourse to demand ‘redbubble is impinging my personal freedom’. It simply isn’t. There are many other outlets for you, and this one does not belong to you. You don’t get to set the agenda on this site.

Full fucking stop.

Simeon,

hate helping turn this guy’s homepage into your own private soapbox.

I see, so its a soap box when 4 -5 of you gang up and I take time to replay to each one of you? Good show!

He can’t even acknowledge or conceive that there should be a point of view different…

Yep, when you resort to thinks like “DON”T CLICK THIS” I would say you’ve run out of meaningful ways to have dialog and knowing what kind of things you consider art I just as soon not. Apply this to the rest of it.

i think this is very naive of redbubble to say that they want to steer clear of topics such as religion and politics. Some of the greatest works of art have been created using these very foundations. Removing these topics would stifle creativity.

Art is about expression.

dimsim,

“Where is the intimidation? “

Right there mate, you did it again.

““That is neither hateful or suggestive of removing anyones freedom of expression unless you construe freedom of expression to mean I must view anything anyone wants to put up. If that is the description of freedom of expression then I’ll be damned, someone changed the dictionary on me.”

Gee, you’re still not getting it. The front page is redbubble’s. Their right to freedom of expression is they can put whatever the fuck they want on their web site.

You can’t. This site is not yours. It’s theirs.

Your and my works here are tolerated by the grace of the redbubble site. This site is not published by the US government, so you have no recourse to demand ‘redbubble is impinging my personal freedom’. It simply isn’t. There are many other outlets for you, and this one does not belong to you. You don’t get to set the agenda on this site.

Full fucking stop.”

You see, you can’t accept that there may be a way to solve all of this if it means I don’t have to look at your trash. Who,just exactly is it that’s being intolerant here?

I’ve been offering a solution and you’ve been doing nothing but bitching so why don’t you just stop. Nope I won’t resort to your lever but I’m quite sure you get the idea.

war is guuud.

Bob – we are moving in this direction – but it will take us quite a while to build all the software to allow people to personalize RedBubble to suit their interests. I suspect it will take us a year to build out the functionality. It’s hard.

Thanks for interjecting and validating what I knew was possible. I will stand down as I understand your intentions for interjecting.

Since people have been so rude as to not answer your question Bob McK about what a barbie is I’ll tell.

The primary mechanical element is a a type of cooking instrument either powered by gas or charcoal to cook meat and other food. The Weber (a North American kettle barbeque) is very popular here.

Barbies in Oz often involve a lot of blokes standing around said cooking instrument spouting half-witted pronouncements that Orstralia is the best country in the world, that we have the best soldiers in the world and if anyone doesn’t love Orstralia then they should go back to where they came from, and anyway who cares what the world thinks of us, because we have the best country in the world. Amazing, I can’t believe you don’t know about barbies!

Col Finnie,

LOL, So it’s the same as a good old BBQ over here. Now I understand!

Sorry Mr Picasso – your Guernica paining is not welcome on the front page.

“The home page was a mistake”

that’s ridiculous. in my opinion you have nothing to apologise for, and nothing to explain. i’m really annoyed that redbubble is bowing to overreaction, bowing to misdirected criticism.

with announcements like this, you are taking sides. you’re aligning yourself with those who needlessly overreact. you’re agreeing to subdue a particular viewpoint in accordance with the desires of a vocal minority.

this is a hard line to tread, but in my opinion i think we should attempt to foster a sophisticated culture that’s capable of critical thought and discussion, instead of dumbing everything down to avoid any chance of offence to anyone. when did we lose our ability to deal with an opposing view without it sending us into hysterics.

we may not like what everyone else has to say, damn if they shouldn’t be allowed to say it.

Bob McKain, did you really think that removing your portfolio would affect RB’s ruling on this one? Maybe it will.

It wouldn’t be the first time the militarists had censored Guernica

Well, this could go on forever, but I think if RB admin. read the diverse views here, they’ll find the overwhelming majority are calling for a return to Freedom, Art, Ideas and Truth.”

RB Gods,
Thanks for your reply. This is a big problem indeed.
“We support freedom of expression but we will not allow works that promote hate…” BOOM! you just shot a moderator in the foot. What constitutes hate: I do not wish to be associated with a site that allows such open hatred to be the rule of the day.
is an expression of their right to free speach.
“At the moment a lot of people are staying away from contentious debates because of fear …” is that good? Obviously not.

In my opinion, RB is perceived as a “public” place. I know it’s a private domain, but for the users it feels public. As in any other public place you’ll come across many varied opinions and behaviours. The civilised thing is to not bother others, and yet have the right to express yourself.
If I wore and anti-war, anti-militaristic Tshirt on a train, people who don’t like it would just look away. If they chose to come over and atack me verbally or physically, they would be considered nuts and ejected from the said train.
If I do it on the Internet they feel free to gang up, attack, abuse and terrorise (anyone offended by this one, look up the definition) the moderators / owners of the site.
Unfortunately in the current world climate it is very easy to be threatened by a bunch of obsessives into submission to their view of the universe.

Concluding, I believe that the forums should not be moderated apart from the social pathology point of view.
If someone’s political views are offended so be it.
If somebody’s army is at war and another person disagrees with the concept of attacking another country based on a bunch of proven lies – well, so be it.

Censorship, no matter how nicely dressed is not a good thing.
I am very surprised that RB issued the apology in this particular form.
I’d definitely say sorry, but also reserve the right to show off whatever you want, after all that’s what freedom of expression is all about.

I agree with Shayne. I know it is a big job, but I think all the responses should be read.

_What is art if not an expression? And what is an expression if it is boxed and confined?

Basically I believe art is freedom, and should be kept that way. If it offends, just remember that if you believe strongly enough in the thing it is “attacking,” or “offending” it won’t get to you, or make you angry._

*This is an extract of the comment I wrote a earlier, I just wanted to say it again.
I know other people have already mentioned this, but if the RedBubble Admin put a disclaimer somewhere saying we do not endorse the messages in the art that is displayed on the home page (or something like that), wouldn’t that solve problems like these?
Sorry if I am just repeating old ideas, but I wanted to put another 2 Cents worth in.
Peace
-Lila

How was the weather in FNQ, Peter? ;)

Peter, a Homepage group is a good idea (and easier to keep track of what or who has alredy been featured on there) but would it make much difference as regards to selection and diversity of the homepage, i.e. if there is a theme, to be diverse in media selection, I guess it could only be a colour, possibly a subject, but each slot on the homepage will have to show photography, oil abstract, hdr, drawing, computer generated etc….. to make it different from what it has been lately. Finding a balance between diversity of works and harmony to create an unique homepage.

Also, I feel that currently whoever does the homepage, should ignore the first 20 pages or more before making their selection using key words, again giving a chance to works which have not had much exposure but still show quality, creativity and uniqueness.

Back to the homepage group idea, I think it should be run by several hosts/group leaders, all having a different style (obvious from their portfolios) but showing creativity and open mindness and all from different countries too.

If the team running the group is reflecting what RB is about, possibly their selection from the works submitted will end up creating homepages inviting visitors to enter the site.

Art is expression. If someone doesn’t like a certain piece, they can move onto the next one until they find something they like. That’s what makes art so awesome. Red Bubble should definitely continue to support all forms of it. More power to you for sticking up for us. :)

“The Weber (a North American kettle barbeque) is very popular here.

Barbies in Oz often involve a lot of blokes standing around said cooking instrument spouting half-witted pronouncements …(SNIP)...the best country in the world. Amazing, I can’t believe you don’t know about barbies!”
True genius Col.
So what exactly did you have in mind writing this…
LL OO LL
LL OO OO LL
LL OO OO LL
LL OO OO LL
LL OO OO LL
LLLLLLLL OO LLLLLLLL

What is the point of trying to please everyone? There are probably more people upset and offended by this apology than were offended by the homepage in the first place. Are you going to apologise to us for kowtowing to the whingers?

Ivy – Hear, hear!

“We might become the ‘anti Iraq war site’ or the ‘pro Iraq war site’ … and this isn’t what we want.”
There are always the kittens. LOL

To RB – But that is precisely the point – by apologising (and in the process undercutting one of your own team members) you take a side. Take a look at the above – is the number of people offended by the particular Homepage any greater or more “offended” than those affronted by your apology.

Do you have an example site that you think is doing it particularly well?

I always think that Live Journal’s comment systems is hands down the best in the world!

To RB – I’ve been reading your responses and I think there is a point dear to many of our hearts that you don’t seem to understand. No one is saying that RB should join in debates or endorse any particular view point. But a simple statement to this effect by you in response to those who took exception to the RB Homepage was all that was required to achieve this – the standard disclaimer of “view expressed in no way reflect those of management”. By taking the additional step of apologising you went way beyond this. Implicit in an apology is that you acted incorrectly and that you regret the act. For many of us here you did absolutely neither. And the unfortunate result of this apology is that it strengthens intolerance by rewarding it – it says, “you were upset and you left and that hurt us” therefore your actions were effective. By all means please just provide a platform where hot topics can be presented, on occasion, right on the front page – just don’t join in the debate by giving succour and encouragement to the intolerant.

I’m sorry, but I still see it as just another victory for intolerance.

I am not an artist as such i photograph as i see things & what i can do with the camera
is a way of showing what i see (no manipulation). I love what RB provides us with
(a service) & i cant understand why you should feel you should say sorry to a MINORITY
group of people, we are all free to express ourselve’s wether it be way of the Lens,
pencil or brush. If people become offended they very well much have a narrow mind
FREEDOM OF SPEECH i say as you cant please everyone

Hi Peter – thanks for taking the time to make these responses – I won’t waste time repeating what I just said that addresses the points you just made. Let’s move on. At the very least I think you need to broaden the base for who makes Homepage selections. It is your portal so the quality needs to be high. With all due respect to you guys (and having had the honour of being selected for Homepage myself) I don’t think it really does the overall quality of work on RB justice. Very occasionally I’ll open it up and go – Wow, now that’s something. More often it’s Hmm – Featured is better than this selection. But Featured already lets RBers themselves choose the pics so I don’t think this should be extended. What about trialling something in addition to RB staff such as recognised artists, photographers, gallery owners, publishers from outside RB being given the job as well. That way you encourage key “industry” people to view the work here and would, I suspect, get some entirely different and fascinating Homepages. In return these “industry” people get acknowledgement on Homepage with maybe a link to their own websites – potentially 100’s of people coming to see their work they wouldn’t otherwise have. Just a thought. You could approach a half dozen key people asking them to participate in a trial and see what they come up with.
Although you might be feeling a bit battered with all this look at what you and your compatriots have created – a site people care immensely about. Congrats for that.

Maybe RB just needs a simple disclaimer down the bottom of the homepage, such as, “The views expressed on this website do not necessarily reflect the views of Redbubble site personnel”, or something like that. It may help save this issue from arising again.

I often take exception to opinion pieces published in my local daily newspaper, but that’s life and as they say, there’s no such thing as a “wrong” opinion.

Anti war? Ooo, how awful. Isn’t it disgusting that some people might think nuking everything isn’t the way forward? In my view, anyone who complained that this home page was offensive is basically saying that people aren’t allowed to express opinions and views in their art. Isn’t that what art’s about? If you dont like it, dont look. Lighten up people.

What is the point of art in this day and age if not to hold a mirror to society? We see enough neutering of artists by societal, official and organisational censorship. I see little wrong with controversial editorial pieces. Newspapers do it all the time. If I disagree heartily enough, I’ll debate the issue. Who cares if the piece was anti-Iraq War? The majority of people in the world fit into that category, even in the nations perpetuating the continued occupation. People need to realise that opinions differ, learn to discuss things rationally, and not be so hyper-sensitive or politically correct if they have a problem with legitimately expressed opinions.

I’m here for the party.

Kool and the Gang – Celebration on YouTube

Hi Peter,

I think for the most part you guys are keeping it open and free. To make my analogy clearer – I’m more disappointed with the members here that complain when there’s biscuits (or cookies for some) they don’t like in the biscuit tin, and then say they don’t want anyone else to eat them.

You can please All of the people some of the time, and some of the people all of the time. Get over it. In twenty four hours a whole new set of images will be on display, pleasing and displeasing a whole new batch of people.

our mistake was that we need to strive for editoral impartiality (and the page communiated an editoral opinion). The minute we start to take sides in debates we’ll erode the diversity of opinions on RB.

Isn’t removing artworks from the home page due to a perceived interpretation of a handful of artworks by some people a way of taking sides?

How can one call that impartiality ?

Ah thanks but I’m afraid the comment you quote isn’t from me – quite a good idea but I still think getting respected “outsiders” involved in the selection process would be a good idea. There is just so much existing high quality stuff on RB that isn’t making it to Homepage. And getting to Homepage at least once is such a boost – as a result of my recent Homepage posting I got an addtional 1500 views and about 30 odd people added me to their watchlist, plus I made a sale of a canvas print.

i hate knowing that the homepage will be censored from now on…if red bubble said that they are non-biased and non-affiliated, then it would not matter what is on the homepage. but an apology automatically makes it an editorial position. ya’ll did yourselves in. instead, ya’ll should’ve just stated that the views expressed on the homepage are not the views of red bubble but the views of the particular artist. that way, you can feature whoever the hell you want and it would mean that everyone (regardless of political position) would have a chance of getting their work on the homepage, instead of “well, this is too controversial for the homepage”. that is like separate but equal and not too fair. well, i guess this will never make it to the homepage, then:

:o)

censorship will only drive people away, controversy, war, death, love this is all what inspires us as artists, censorship is wrong, do you think that michalangelos david should be destroyed because it depicts nudeness should all the paintings that depict the civil war in america be hidden because it depicts hatered, should images like those painted in the cistene hapel be banned because they depict christianity and that could upset a buddhist, god no we the artists should be pushing these boundries.

Kittens and puppies are soft, I love them both!

Peter,

I do not see why you couldn’t have an anti war home page and at bottom note that following day you will post Pro War art…..or just put a disclaimer under the art that states that it does not reflect views of RB….as newspapers and magazines do.

In any society that subscribes to freedom of expression there are, nevertheless, limitations that govern such freedoms. Otherwise, it ceases to be a society. This is why a judicial system is required - to prevent anarchy. “Artistic expression” does not confer carte blanche for “anything goes”. You may not hide behind a claim of “artistic expression” to falsely exclaim “Fire!” in a crowded theater, to use the canonical example. Besides which, who is the arbiter of what constitutes art? One woman’s art is another man’s trash. Your mother is no longer the sole judge of the “art” that emanates effortlessly from your talented body and soul.

This thread reveals much of what I, personally, find offensive:

(1) The herd mentality which elicits pompous statements about “freedom of artistic expression” when it is perceived that the majority of those commenting support a particular political view.

(2) Off the cuff remarks full of typos and poor grammar.

(3) Gratuitous flattery to curry favorable acceptance of a dubious point of view.

Guys why all this arguing when you could be out there creating ? We all have critics …everyone has opinions .I have favorited only MY OWN RED BUBBLE page ..then I can look at my favorite artists ..my watch lists and leave everyone else to do what they want …

Artist should be given creative freedom and their works should be criticised positively.

@React D: “Artist should be given creative freedom and their works should be criticised positively.”

And everyone should be above average.

In Peter’s own words on another thread, this bad behaviour (and this subsequent outcome) was started by only a “few bad apples”. The 2 or 3 threads in question were shut down because of those “few bad apples”. Peter has refused to remove the bad apples from the basket and now the rot is spreading. That’s what happens when you leave even one bad apple in the basket. Those bad apples don’t know the meaning of “social” and they use Freedom of Speech as their excuse for anti-social behaviour and civility is lost on them. Just count the number of uncivil remarks in this thread alone. There are laws that protect Freedom of Speech but there are no laws to govern the anti-social behaviour. Get used to it folks.

Here is the difference between artists and critics of art. Expressing thoughts or feelings on any media is the artists mandate. We artists can’t be dishonest to our calling, just as the creative processs dictates the outcome. A healthy discourse on “political” subjects is an artform all it’s own and should be encouraged. Let’s try and be above the petty insecurity of “someone not liking us” because we’ve created a disturbing image. The question is “how does RB see its function? Are we a corporation that needs to meet the bottom line, or humans that create, love, laugh, cry, share, enjoy life and all its aspects.

Its seems to me that people were more put off by the POSSIBILITY that there might be a hidden agenda by RedBubble than by the actual images themselves. As members here, every nation, race, denomination (religion), sex, creed…. etc… wants to feel SAFE and accepted. When certain images are grouped together … even unintentionally… those who share the common space react in fear that a hidden message might be there… “singling us out”. Its true that Americans are not too popular with many, many other countries around the world. I work every day with a wide range of individuals who are from other countries so I understand that the global opinion of our country is not what I would personally like it to be. I’m sure other Americans are aware of this as well and I guess it makes us more sensitive to certain messages or images that might be sending that message. I only noticed the one image of the girl on the tree swing and all the rest didn’t even catch my eye. But just because that group of images did not elicit a reaction from me, does not mean that I can’t understand or empathize with the reaction it elecited from some. It would be just as wrong to be angry or have no tolerance for the people who were upset by the images as it would be for to be upset by the images in the first place. Thank you Peter .. and RedBubble, for the apology and clarification of why the images were chosen. In any community… ANY family… there are people who will be hurt, who HAVE been hurt, and who have fear and mistrust and all these will come out in reactions of various kinds. The only response, always, is love, assurance, peace and patience. (I know it sounds so polly-anna-ish)
Getting upset with the people who get upset is really not constructive, and that is the one thing I see happening in this thread.

We have a right to freedom of expression and RB has offered that platform but when do we say somethings offensive to others and respect that it hurts them?
I might like sex with a monkey but my girlfriend wont do it she finds it disgusting do I bring the monkey to bed and make her join in or respect her wishes and let the monkey stay on the side looking?
I really think free speech and all of the liberty’s that we want to have are fine but we need to understand that the attitude of the hell with what you think, its my world and I am gonna do what I want so fuck off!
Where are we going with this?
Some people are offended by things some of us think is fine what do we do tell them to take a hike?
To me this MTV attitude is exactly why we have so many problems in the world with the Me first attitude!
Look up in the Netherlands a person was Killed because he chose to make a film some people thought was offensive! Could this have been avoided? Maybe but the point is there are all types of people out there who have things they hold dear to them just like you and I hold freedom of speech dearly.
But dont their idears and views matter as much as the person whos saying I have a right to do what I want to do?
RB is a community and every community I have ever been in had rules because without them people run wild!
We have a large number of people here who want to be offensive in their art thats cool but does it need to be in your face and telling people its my way and when they protest againts that aboue in their eyes they are told to fuck off your stupid!
Artist like to rock the boat but do we really need to make a community of people with diffrent values feel like their not welcome based on pettiness? Why not simply make a section for artist to have the freedom to say and do what they want and then call it RBX and let the looker beware of what they might encounter!
Then the faint of heart need not enter!
And then no one can say hey thats ugly or hurtful simply don’t open the door!
You have a right to smoke but don’t blow it in my face or come in my house with it!
Does any of this make any kind of since?
And who stole my monkey?

RB,
“If we’re seen to be supporters of a particular side in a debate then we can stifle the very freedom of expression…”
But by removing the site and apologising for it your ARE taking sides and are stifling the freedom of expression.

“Our mistake was to present a homepage that was intrepreted by a sizeable number of folks as an editorial comment by RedBubble.”

Do you seriously think that if there was a main page based on a religious theme, you’d have a flood of complaints from ateists or other denominations?

You are intelligent people, and despite the wishy-washy explanations here, you know frull well what this was all about and why was the page taken off and an apology issued.
Please do not insult out intelligence, thank you in advance.

Maybe the front page should be made by the users themselves. BM a chosen user and ask them to submit a set of images with max 1 of their own.

I am sure that people will be happy and proud to contribute.

Well after reading most of these comments, one thing springs to mind yes we are a community and i have told my friends [who i may add are now regular partisipants] how good a site it is, but sometimes I do feel its a bit one sided….its seems there is a rule for one and not the other…..and some of you will know exactly what i mean…..

As for the war theme, im sure its not directed just at the americans, I live in the Uk and I have friends in Irac, ok only via the internet but they are still friends and i pray for them each and every day not just for them but for all the forces out there for their safe return,

So why can we not let sleeping dogs lie so to speak and bring our community back together again as one…....

Im sorry im not very good at words but i hope it all makes sense

I agree with David. I think the greatest freedom we have is the freedom of expression. I think everyone, no matter what their view, should have the freedom to pronouce it. Shout it loud and without worry of how THEIR view is going to be taken. It is their view and it’s really none of my business to make judgement on it. HOWEVER… I also have a view. Should I choose to express that view, I also should have no judgement cast on me. I should not be characterized as uptight or judgemental or unable to open my eyes. The consequence to freedom of expression is the freedom to critizise those expressions. If you can’t handle the response, don’t put it out there in an open forum. Put it behind closed doors where people know what to expect and can decide for themselves whether or not they want to be exposed to the controvesial content. Other wise, you have to be open to my point of view as well. Personally, I think that the reason America went into Iraq was completely flawed, but the work that we have done their has the potential to turn a country once ruled by governmental violence into something great. Just as you enjoy your freedom of expression, it is my believe that the people of Iraq may enjoy their new freedoms as well.

Karen,
I am in Australia and we have troops in Iraq as well, and yet, despite ANY clear indication as to what army was shown in the images, it was the Americans who complained. Why, feeling guilty maybe? Instantly associating anti-war with anti-American? If that’s the case, it’s a sad state of affairs..

I was absolutely dumbfounded by the vitriol and venom that was spewed and journalled about “that” homepage. I couldn’t believe how quickly and how violenty people reacted and how nasty and offensively defensive certain sections of our community became. Art is Art, you may like it, you may not- but the vast majority of the people complaining took it upon themselves to try and force the hand od Redbubble. There was NOTHING to apologise about and it was truly a sad day in RB’s history. Definitely a shining example of the inmates running the asylum.

Redbubble has given us an opportunity to show each persons view of “art”.
One of the things I appreciate best about “Canvas Man” it the honesty to tell me when she does not like what I have done…I do not get offended, I take it as her opinion, which is of value to my growth in art.
I do with that Rb would expand their base, so outsider with $$$ would purchase our works.

The homepage was simply a cross section of what we as an artistic company can offer. Just as it is every day. We should openly and honestly debate what is going on in society and we do it through our art. I have no problem with the homepage, in fact I expect to be challenged and sometimes offended by art (ie Piss Christ and more recently Bill Henson). Welcome to the art world.

The interpretation of each art work is not designed by RB, it is interoperated by the individual. Anything can be considered offensive depending on your situation. So as an arts community we need to stay open minded and understand free speech is a right we can use.

This debate will go on, and it is healthy, normal and necessary.

I will say that I’m pleased that Red Bubble takes peoples concerns seriously. If you are offended speak up, but don’t expect that everyone will be offended and agree with you. Thanks to RB for being honest and opening up the debate.

Nothing to apologize for. Nothing. Whoever was offended by these images should perhaps be more offended by the tens of thousands of innocent people killed in the illegal Iraq war and Afghanistan. Austraila was duped by the Americans just as Canada and the UK was into joining the pointless War of Terror. Its not the soldiers fault…its the spineless politicians who send them to their death on behalf of lobbies and corporations. Lets be offended by that instead.

Peter if you honestly support the vision that this online art world here at RB is just as valid if not more relevent than some other art institutions and outlets as you often advocate then you should not have to appologise for the way people interpret artworks. There was nothing wrong with those images. An over sanitized art site is not going to have any integrity. It may sell lots of pretty art, but it will become closer to the notion of what moves through commercial galleries than what is shown in public funded galleries. And we all know commercial galleries sell only what moves and in fashion…for people who generally dont want anything on their walls they may have to think about. I guess the choice is yours as this beast is yours at the end of the day no matter how much you say it belongs to the audience who generate the content it isn’t because you get to dictate what stays and goes…you are the censor and you are making descions yourself now, not purely based on law. I would be deeply saddened to see RB pander to the few rather than represent all. My full response is here if your interested

Yep.I was born in the US.I live in the US.Was I offended by this artwork?HELL NO.Americans need to realize there is more to the world than the good ol’ US of A.And it all counts-everyone,everywhere.What they hold dear,their views, their beliefs.It’s art.Let it be.Enough said.

Can I suggest a simple solution for the home page RB? This solution avoids the “rock and hard-place” situation you are setting yourself up for yourselves with arbitrating on what will be non-controversial topics on the home page.

Simply state in big font across the top of the home page that the home page pictures are compiled by individual staff members and represent their picks on the best images currently on the RedBubble site. Those images do not represent an editorial position of RedBubble or cannot be construed as being indicative of the collective view of RedBubble as an organisation or of the people contributing to the site.

Disclaimers are mostly irrelevant when trying to absolve a person from an obligation that could reasonably be expected to always be attached to a person. But I think you would find that no reasonable person would expect you have a duty or obligation to police controversial subjects on a site thats primary purpose is to present artistic stuff.

Of course you’re obliged to act decisively if people are using the site to promote vilification of races, nations or gender. Of course you have to do the same for any other topic that incites illegal activity.

None of those things were present in the “naughty” home page. I’d suggest you need to think very carefully about inferring that the home page is an editorial opinion of RedBubble, something I agree might have reasonably been construed was the case in the absence of you stating clearly what role it had.

At the moment you are looking like you are over-reacting to what I would think is a hysterical reaction from a relatively small group of people. And I think all that doesn’t have any bearing on the issue of dealing with any personal or vindictive posting by people. (I’m assuming that the home page post and some people’s reaction to it resulted in some vindictive commentary on some Bubbler’s pages. That’s a different issue that is happening all the time here.)

Rule #1 when it comes to responding to controversy: ensure your reaction is measured and not dictated by the emotion of the moment.

By glazing through the comments it seems pretty clear that to me that we may
never truely solve the delima.
It has been argued that “without censorship of the airwaves and radio that it would result in the brodcasting of the lowest common demominator” ( quote from movie Pump up the Volume).
I cant help but think that if we allow cencorship of art (music, fine arts, martial arts, litrature, grahic novels, ect ect. ) to continue to take root unchecked in the vast garden of society, that we as humans will have truely hit the lowest common denominator.

Vivia La Red Bubble. (although it may now forever limp after shooting itself in the foot by apologizing for a hand full of images.)

First I want to say I think Peter’s Journal is very appropriate, professional and appreciated by myself and likely many others here on RB. I full-heartedly support what he’s saying. So, thank you, Peter, for taking time out of your own personal vacation to put so much thought and effort into this.

I am an American but do not always agree with the actions of the government of my country. Although I choose to discuss my political views w. friends in person rather than use RB, I don’t feel there’s anything wrong w. using art to express one’s own political or religious views. When I saw the HP I wasn’t angry I just thought “that’s typical” and moved along to what I needed to do on RB. Two of my cousins have fought in previous wars, my grandfather fought in WWII and my brother-in-law’s 21 year old son was killed 3 years ago in Afghanistan (ripped to shreds by gunfire) after being there for 3 months. I am not what you would call a “pro-war” type of person. However, I am extremely supportive of those who have chosen to support my country by serving in the armed forces – not just in the Middle East, but in Germany, France, England, etc. I believe everyone has a right to free speech, but not at the expense of harming others. I think most people would agree there should not be photos of child pornography, murders, rapes and the like on RB and not even on the Internet – that is actually censorship. We are drawing a line and saying it’s not ok. Everyone has a different level of tolerance and is offended by something different. If I posted a photo of a burning Australian or English flag that would likely offend some. Of course I wouldn’t, because I have no reason to and it’s just not me. My point is that every person is offended or bothered by something – it’s just different for each person – some less or more than others. Getting nasty or attacking those that voice their feelings about an issue certainly won’t make matters any better. RB managers have a tough job and will never please everyone, but I applaud their efforts to try to remain as professional and unbiased as possible.

Hey Peter,
Don’t let anything or anyone take you from having beautiful peaceful much needed holidays with the ones you love, life is too short! Love your baby photo, so gorgeous.

I’d have to agree with the first comment here:
“But perhaps the most important thing we can all build is a culture that’s accepting of ‘hot’ topics. A culture where things can be debated and discussed without it becoming personal. A culture where openness is encouraged and patience is shown. A culture where we strive to respect different perspectives.”

- And THAT is why I joined redbubble and love it so much.”

The home page didn’t offend me at all and I don’t think controversial issues or opinions should be avoided or censored – art is all about bringing these issues to society.

Art by its very nature and description is meant to be confronting. It’s meant to make one think. It’s meant to examine everything aspect of the human condition to give us perspective and a way of thinking about who we are and what we do. If RedBubble is going to promote itself as a site for art as it seems it thinks it is then apologising for displaying some of the great works on here on its front page is not the way to go about it. If RB is going to kowtow to every complaint levelled at a piece of art, then it is going to come across not as a site for art, but just another site full of sunsets and t-shirts with inane comments on them. Make a decision RedBubble – have the courage to stand by your convictions, or stop pretending to be a site for Art and let yourself be drowned in kittens and t-shirts saying “stop staring at my tits”.

its great we can talk about this and exercise free speech, where in some countries we would be in a concentration camp by now, isnt that what our soldiers fight for

its great we can talk about this and exercise free speech, where in some countries we would be in a concentration camp by now, isnt that what our soldiers fight for

@deezy: ” ... illegal Iraq war and Afghanistan. Austraila [sic] was duped by the Americans just as Canada and the UK was into joining the pointless War of Terror.”

It’s a bit hard to follow your logic, but are you suggesting that Afghanistan is illegal? What does that even mean? Could you describe how those silly Americans managed to dupe those intelligent peoples of Australia, Canada, and the United Kingdom? And, by the way, we are not actually waging a War of Terror, unless you are referring to Shock and Awe. We like to call it a War on Terror (i.e., a War against Terror). And it’s not actually pointless. It is being waged so that you and others like you can continue to enlighten us with your clever, albeit puzzling, insights.

Wow BigHenry, I’m not too fond of my country either right now, but you just must want to tick some people off. Careful what you say about any country… you’ve lost my respect, that’s for sure.

I’m not touching anything any other poster on this thread has written but to Redbubble I just want to say: Please don’t apologise for a controversial homepage. I’m more likely to leave if Redbubble gets boring and generic than if it presents views that may be contrary to my own. To everyone else, feel free to keep loading photos of flowers and babies and puppy dogs.

Seems to me that some of the contributors to the forums that have thousands of posts under their names must have been doing an awful lot of complaining and whining. Maybe these long-suffering artists should just make some art instead of trying to manipulate everyone else.

I’ve just re-read some of the recent forum thread on homosexuality and the church which Peter made reference to and don’t find anything offensive in it. Perhaps the over-the-top posts were removed and, that being the case, why was the whole thread locked down so that those who were enjoying a very intelligent discussion couldn’t finish? That forum was replaced by a nasty little thing called, “Don’t Feed thew Trolls” devised by RB admin Jo O’Brien which was an open bitchfest of sarcasm, sniping and slander.

Dear me, a newcomer to RB would be right to think it’s an amateur site run by Desperate Housewives for schoolgirls.

I don’t like cows. Where do I complain?

Now RB, don’t you think that you have upset more people by taking the site off and apologising than the page itself did?

I’ll never look at RB the same way again.

If you really want to be fair to all users, now would be a good time to apologise to all who are upset by your act of self-censorship. Unless of course we don’t deserve an apology being mad liberals with no nukes, so who cares about us…

to shane, is your comment about an amateur site run by desperate housewives for school girls a put down on women?

Sorry FD., I’ll remove my cow pic for heifer. After all, to err is human; to moo bovine.

I have just now been reading the comments and have looked at the images I was not aware of as I had other things to do. While we have self important meglamaniacs world wide, we are going to have to go to war. Most of us hate war and the insueing results and the only way out is to become peaceable, loving, caring and selfless, then we will have peace and will repair the damage all round. There are some people who only understand force which is a shame because of their grab for power.

When my husband and I lived in the U.S. recently for five years, we were proud to stand up when the national athem was played honoring those who had given their lives and at such a young age, believing they were doing the right thing. It was their choice, and none of us have the right to criticise them for giving their lives for what they believed was right.
I am an Aussie and proud of being one ,and I know if someone blew up one of our buildings we would all band together to get the person who had done it. We are independant individuals but you touch one of us and our Scottish, Irish or whatever warrier blood comes to the fore.

The images on RB showed what war correspondents portray on the television every night, life as it is however sad it is. A man once said many years ago, people will cry out for peace and they will not find it. It begins with you and me fellow redbubblers whose artwork I admire and isn’t it great that we have the freedom of expression. Thank you Peter for your efforts and you have a lovely daughter.

Gloria, much of what you said is true, but have you missed the news over the last few years?
”...if someone blew up one of our buildings we would all band together to get the person who had done it…” according to all reliable news services in the world, there is absolutely no connection between Iraq and the 911 attacks.
Remember when a few days before being attacked, Iraq supplied (as requested) 5000 pages of a report on their alleged nuclear programme? Remember the reaction? Accusations of lies and deception, followed by the actual attack, followed by a complete to find any trace of a nuclear or chemical weapons, followed by a spin to turn the reasons for the war around until no one cares to remember why the war started. This war has no other purpose but to allow a few corporations to become even richer and secure the oil for the SUVs.

rosepepper, you should know better. The capitalisation of Desperate Housewives makes it clear I was referring to the TV series, and the vapid characters created for it. In losing the upper case, you’re making it about something else entirely and putting words in my mouth. Tsk.

shayne and rose – this how wars are started.

couple more thoughts on this, how about you have the whole homepage random? No problems of making an “editorial statement”. Of course that would make make the page suck also.

If you consider the page was a mistake, surely there are some criteria then what’s acceptable and what’s not. So where do you draw the line?

And i’m also curious about the “sizeable number of folks” who were offended. How many people exactly? Where do you draw the line with that? Is it okay if just 100 people were offended? Thousand people? Is the number somehow connected to the subject and if so, how? Just some specifics would be nice…

If you didn’t think the page was a mistake when you put it up – then stand up for your choice of images. They don’t do a great deal for me, but I have no objection to them. Somewhere in the world someone is offended every second of the day. Acceptance and tolerance is what is required.

Well said Peter and love the photo of your daughter!

Peter,
I fully support the RB ground rules and think that your handling of both situations is professional. I can only imagine the mind boggling task it is to manage such a varied group from so many different cultures and view points! And with RB growing all the time that only adds to the frenzy. Keep up the good work! Love the shot of your beautiful little girl! Peace and Tolerance!

BrianCandy, please define a “reliable news service…”

Unfortunately, political agendas and the “hot” story is what is reported as news. With very good friends coming home from the Mid-East and their stories of what is going on over there heavily conflicting with what our “reliable news services” are reporting, I will take my friend’s word over theirs every time.

In a typical 7 day week, our troops spend 6 days building schools, rebuilding infrastructure, training their police and troops, and pouring billions of dollars into doing it all. Then on day 7 a bomb goes off that some worthless coward set and kills a bunch of people, usually non-military and people just trying to go to work . So out of seven days worth of news, the one bad day gets the story. I wouldn’t exactly call that reliable. Sensationalism at its finest maybe, but definitely not reliable.

As for the whole anti-American bent, there are not not many people Americans haven’t helped in the past 200+ years of our history. Be it a natural disaster, a war, or simply standing up next to you when you needed a friend, we have done it. Countries that have been around for thousands of years should be light years ahead of the U.S. but still lean heavily on us when they need to. Do we tell them to go away? Leave us alone? We are too tired? Too poor? Never.

And then we get to look forward to getting hit in the back as we turn and head for home. We endure the spit and seething hatred. And we come back the second we are needed again every time.

I guess I need to move to one of these other countries (you know who you are) to try and understand their point of view, but I can’t think of any reason I would leave my USA.

And for those idiots who think we are in Iraq for the oil, please take a look at our economy. Gimme a break. You gotta do better than that.

jg

A thought came to my mind last night. Imagine RB continually selected strongly controversial artwork from various viewpoints (political, religious, whatever) to post on their homepage, even with a disclaimer posted. Although there’s likely nothing ethically wrong with this, eventually (and likely rather quickly) RB would become the site known as the “controversial issue” site rather than an “art” site. Now, there’s nothing wrong with a controversial issue site, but I think what Peter is saying is that this is not the vision or goal of the RB founders for RedBubble. I believe, from what I understand, they envision RB as a welcoming Art site for artists – from all backgrounds. As for the true definition of Art, Webster’s defines it as: “the products of human creativity.” Wikipedia states, “Art refers to a diverse range of human activities, creations, and expressions that are appealing or attractive to the senses or have some significance to the mind of an individual.” I don’t see anything stating that art must cause controversy to actually be called art. Thus, just because something is beautiful and not controversial does not mean it is not art. And just because something is controversial does not mean it is art. Although, I do agree that art should move us in some way – whether it be in a postive or negative emotion, it is different for each person.

dunno, i’m American and i saw no problem with that page at all, either when it was up, or now looking back at it. Fair enough that if it was a critique of the war in Iraq, the critique agrees with my own personal political viewpoint, but still that wasn’t what i saw when i looked at the page. But if an art site can’t show different, possible inflammatory viewpoints, then i’n afraid for art in general. Something is always goint to piss someone off somewhere, and i’m personally more offended by a bland, milqutoast, and fearful of a controversial opinion art site then a possibly sometimes inflammatory one.

can you see why americans would be offended? their sons, daughters, husbands and wives serving in the armed forces are being depicted as pigs and psychotic killers. it’s important to voice your opinion about the war, but to take out your anger about it on the individual is insensitive. people were offended by the page not for because of the political opinion but because of how their loved ones were portrayed.

Very good point, Vincent. I don’t necessarily think the images were addressed specifically toward Americans, but certainly toward soldiers and there are many American soldiers at war right now. There are soldiers from other countries fighting, but more from America than from any other country and the main focus of condemnation about the War has been against the US. If someone has or had a soldier in their family or is, in fact, themselves a soldier, they would likely be much more sensitive to these images to others not in this situation. As I said previously, different people are offended by different things and this should be respected. This doesn’t mean that all “controversial” art should be removed from RB. However, I don’t feel that RB should post it on their HP – not because they are “afraid” of offending, but rather because they are unbiased and allowing RB to be a place for “all people” to share in their own way on their own pages. When a viewer goes to www.redbubble.com they cannot choose what they see, but a viewer can choose what pages they go to after that.

Well BigHenry I enjoyed your comment as well, though parts were puzzling to me as well. I apologize for not explaining my opinon to such an enlightened individual as yourself.

Afghanistan is an illegal conflict because :

Article 51 of the Geneva Convention: “Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited such as an
attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians,
damage to civilian objects or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.” Similarly, the Nuremberg Charter classes as war crimes any “violations of the laws or customs of war which include wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.” Among the targets so far in Afghanistan are airports, communication facilities, electrical plants and government buildings, not to mention wedding parties.

So how does it help us to bomb a poor country back into the stone age ?

The Taliban does not stand accused of the terrorism of September 11 but the reason
they are being bombed is for refusing to hand over Osama bin Laden without seeing
the evidence against him. If the rule of law mattered at all of Latin America would accuse the US of terrorism with the amount of damage is has done over the
past 50 years. If is a War on Terror and not a War of Terror the US would have attacked Pakistan (where Al-Queda is part of the government and openly operates) or Saudi Arabia (all nineteen 911 hijackers were Saudi nationals) Terrorism is a tactic not an actual entity to be destroyed. Its like having a war on jealousy. Canada, the UK and Australia are part of the outdated NATO military alliance so naturally they got dragged into this conflict.

Bottomline again is Redbubble has nothing to apologize for in regards to the content of the homepage in question. Art is Life and politics is part of life as well.

Basic facts of life:

1. Art and politics have always been intermixed and cannot be separated.

2. Any art has the potential of offending. For example, an artistic nude that nobody on RB would complain about will nevertheless be offensive to hundreds of million people around the world.

3. We should not get in the habit of censoring artwork because it will be offensive to many people.

4. RB should put a disclaimer that it does not endorse the politics/message of the artwork.

5. The people who get offended will strongly complain and the offending artists will strongly respond. The RB should monitor the ensuing debates to make sure they do not become full of insults and hatred. The “offensiveness” of the art should not be debated (“you should have not been offended”). We must accept that there are people who will be offended.

Hello deezy,
I am overwhelmed by your authoritative citing of Article 51 of the Geneva Convention. I had forgotten that armed conflict is strictly controlled by the Swiss. I don’t know how to respond to your comment about South America, except to say that, along with Africa and Antarctica, it is another continent. As for NATO, I don’t see how it could be considered outdated if new members continue to be admitted. And if, as you claim, Canada and Australia and the UK were “dragged into this conflict”, how do you explain the fact that the other NATO members did not get “dragged in”? Yes, of course, art and politics are a part of modern life. So are homicide bombers, terrorist attacks that murder thousands of civilians, and many other atrocities we are all too well aware of. And the Geneva Conventions aren’t doing a damn thing to stop them. You should thank your lucky stars you have America to do the heavy lifting.

The Geneva Conventions are much like RB’s “Play Nice” policy. Neither of them work.

@G. Merrick Jus…: “Wow BigHenry, I’m not too fond of my country either right now, but you just must want to tick some people off. Careful what you say about any country… you’ve lost my respect, that’s for sure.”

I apologize for having offended you. If you could be more specific about how I managed to offend you and/or your country (which country is it?), I will make a good-faith effort to make amends.

JohnGo,
Not FOX, that’s for sure. And thank you for telling me that the soldiers are mainly building schools. So who the hell Bombed those cities in Iraq, I will do more research and let you know.

JohnGo,
“there are not not many people Americans haven’t helped in the past 200+ years of our history. Be it a natural disaster, a war, or simply standing up next to you when you needed a friend, we have done it.” Funny man, tell it to the Palestinians, Cubans, Vietnamise, Laotians … the list goes on.

@Jenndes
“As I said previously, different people are offended by different things and this should be respected.”

That is the point, as can be seen by how many people here are offended by the apology. By ‘respecting’ the feelings of only one group RB is plainly taking sides.

Awww. The poor Palestinians. The same Palestinians who can’t stop suicide bombing through a cease fire? And Cubans? Really. Ever been to Miami? New York is home to more of those nationalities than many of their homelands.

And it could be the way it should have been; Bomb Iraq back to the stone age (oh wait, they were already there!), take the oil, and then let them figure out how to recover. But no, we try to help the country back to their feet.

You sound like an appeaser. Name one time in history that appeasement has worked.

And when was the last time Australia had to deal with a city in flames? Against a world who thinks better them than us?

Oh, and I never said a word about FoxNews. They are just as bad as the rest, just the opposite direction.

I think a NEWS source should report NEWS. Not bloody opinions.

Try getting a clue and some facts from somewhere other than CNN. You might not sound so silly.

“Awww. The poor Palestinians. The same Palestinians who can’t stop suicide bombing through a cease fire? And Cubans? Really. Ever been to Miami?”
Say no more, now I know who you are.

“But no, we try to help the country back to their feet.” Wow, that’s so sweet of you.

Well, I may be an appeaser, but I am happy with it.
And I’ll happily let you be an aggressive militarist, god loves YOU, and that’s what matters.

I would regard any move to PC or better yet to de-politicise artists as an admission of defeat on the part of redbubble. Artists have the right to express what they will and we have the right as an audience to ignore, condemn or otherwise critricise. Incitement to hatred is a different matter to criticising a war, all wars need criticism as the idea of having to go to war in the first place shows that not enough “dialogue”, “thought” or “alternatives” were sought in the first place. Here we make art, and I think that he creator of the hompage should retract his apology and point out that he too is human and entitled to his opinion be it that red flowers are nicer than blue, in his opinion, or that graphic art with strong political overtones makes for a great homepage! Freedom of speech is paramount.

Peter,

I think what people have observed recently is that you (rb) back down and cave to complaint by hordes of noisy users of the site. This makes it difficult for us to do art. I took a long break, lost sleep, was quite anxious (as you can probably infer if you read my comments in detail).

Personally, I say stupid, stupid things under stress. It’s embarrasing if those things are public, and on a site which I hoped to promote my professional credentials with. And I’ve just spent a couple of hours, just on this reply. You know, I recently started to try to turn my career to more photography to try to avoid stress.

If we redbubble artists are under the impression that policy here is set according to the outcome of discussions in these forums then producers of art are not going to do much art. Or, the policy you develop will reflect the wishes of people who are not spending much time producing art.

So forgive me for this, but I’m going to debate you on this, from the beginning, because you haven’t taken on board things many have said here, and you clearly aren’t thinking this through, but reacting reflexively to bullying.

I apologise for expressing some frustration earlier in this thread (and confusion .. ‘misogynyst’ is a typo or something, the art here is mostly not misogynyst), and I apologise for any implication I made about yourself or this site, or anything linked to them.

I don’t know, perhaps it’s natural, a few days ago I post some images of landscape overlooking an Aussie Army base, including a wry comment about whether that makes me a Terrorist, a few days later I read this to find you have taken holidays nearby, I know your of past Army service, you say you’re now censoring your front page and effectively disciplining your staff for briefly promoting a couple of anti-war images to the front page slot … I hope you can understand my over-reaction.

“We all make mistakes”, well me too. I hope I am a bit more level-headed now.

And please believe me, I’m trying here to give you some advice, for your and your site’s betterment, and that of it’s users, as I have done in various other correspondences with your staff, and your users. Not always perfect advice, but I try, and it’s not making me any money, which is something I could do with, so I really hope you appreciate it.

From your apology:

“the creator of this particular home page wrote to me: My sole intention was to display a selection of silhouette / stencil t-shirt designs that were a credit to their creators.

“I apologize unreservedly to anyone who has been offended by this home page.”

“The home page was a mistake…”

In a reply to one of my comments you said:

“from a rb perspective the principal issue here is that we need to strive for editorial impartiality. By presenting a homepage that a signifiant number of folks intrepreted as anti-Iraq war anti-US Soldiers et cetera we communicated an editorial opinion. We provide the platform - and we need to do it impartially. The homepage is loaded - it’s widely known that it’s hand chosen by RB staff—so it has the power to convey an editoral opnion. So we need to be careful with it.

“It would have been an acceptable homepage if it included a range of artistic perspectives on the Iraq war.”

Later in reply to someone else, this was expanded a little:

“the page would have been okay if we included a range of artistic perspectives on the Iraq war—in which case we wouldn’t have communicated an editoral position.”

No, that is where you are wrong.

It would communicate the editorial position of, “any representation which may be interpreted to comment on war in Iraq shall be taken to revolve around the topic of dissent against, and support for, war in Iraq”.

Let’s analyse it further. This group of eight images included two images which referred to the war in Iraq. 1 2 Two other images explored authoritarian violence and war, 3 4 (even there, it’s even not clear that they both condemn violence!), one has a soldier in neutral pose 5, one represented a completely unrelated theme of technological change 6, and one depicted innocent joy “7.”http://www.redbubble.com/people/vian/clothing/939799-2-day-dream Ambiguous. Not really definitely anti-US, but definitely not promoting ‘hate’ of US.

The complainents are clearly referring to your list of ‘guidelines’ when they use ‘promoting hate’ as a description. Also, incidentally, I notice ‘intimidating behaviour’, which one fellow continually accuses me of with no clear basis. So these people aren’t really explaining what they feel, what they have been trying to do is point to a rule that will get them what they want from you, and then saying their feelings fit the criteria for that rule. How mature is that?

Anyway, time for a thought experiment. Imagine selecting some ‘art’.

• It is impossible to depict humanity without depicting war. War rages constantly in different parts of the world, in some parts it is more-or-less permanent.

• It is ridiculous to depict war without depicting Iraq war.

• The range of topics in the Iraq war are numerous. More than four. Each topic has more than two sides to it.

OK, so even with all eight images being about Iraq, it still would not be balanced. You just can’t sum up ‘the Iraq war’ in eight images, any better than in one, two, or three images. Someone would always be able to take exception.

Is the site a democracy? That would be interesting, but let’s face it, it’s not and it can’t be. There are always some who can invest a lot of effort to sway things their way, those whose work will bring high commercial gain. etc

Should it be ruled by those who shout the loudest? We wouldn’t enjoy that, I don’t think it’s in the interest of developing good art. See also my opening comments. Art will leave the site, the best art first perhaps. Perhaps you can maintain it a bit like a pyramid scheme does, always recruiting more who will buy a batch of prints to see how it works, then get tired of the shouters and wierdly evolving policy, and leave.

What do you think can be done to improve on the system you are using, where the images are rotated frequently. As you have seen, there are those who will not be satisfied unless you reprogram your site to build in customisable filtering!

When that is done, will they be satisfied, or will they demand that the filtering is not good enough? And meanwhile, you have spent much effort, and offended a whole different set of people through side-effects of your appeasement actions.

You see what I’m getting at? Where do you draw the line in the sand? And I don’t mean to make a war or Iraq analogy here, I just don’t know any other way to put it. Any limit you set is arbitrary. Stylistic. Defined relative to itself, not relative to any fixed point, because there are none. Perception and creation of art is subjective, and shifting.

Suppose you do decide to forumate a policy. How can you word this?

Are you going to avoid any depiction which mentions Iraq, Oil, WMD? Are you going to avoid any depiction of war altogether? Authoritarian violence? How can you formulate this so that you yourself do not have to personally approve or select each batch of images?

What do you do next time someone takes offense? More apologies? More rules? Wash, rinse, repeat.

From your own content guidelines:

• Anything that condones or promotes violence is not acceptable

So it’s not very clear how you are going to represent the pro-war group at all. Presumably the site simply has no pro-Iraq war images. You can’t put up 8 images that are balanced, so if anti-Iraq war images can’t appear unless balanced with pro-Iraq war images, then anti-Iraq war images can’t appear.

But then the front page does not represent the site. It represents some of the site, and the views of a vocal minority, and you. You because it is you who has chosen to sway to this vocal minority, your anonymous staff member was smarter.

You already have a good, fair policy, and your editor followed it. Select some images, basically at random, but with some aesthetic element of theme, and whack them on the front page. Change them in X number of hours. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Can you improve on this, really? Can you improve on it in a way that will satisfy people who are looking for something to criticise, because they see something which offends them?

You can’t.

You have two options.

• Offend them.

• Lose the stuff that offends them.

When asked to choose between people who demand you to actually reprogram your site because of their inability to deal with certain images, and people who publish images that are commended by a broad section of the community, who would you choose to offend?

Most people would naturally choose to offend the demanding, intolerant people.

In reply to a second comment of mine you said:

“Simeon - so the whole point is that we exercise very little editoral control as to what is permitted on RedBubble (our guidelines are here and we seek to avoid taking editorial positions on topics such as the Iraq war. The staff (including me) are human and make mistakes. In this instance we made a mistake and created a page that communiated an editoral position to a certain portion of RedBubble. It wouldn’t have made any difference to my decision if we created a home page that was intrepreted as pro Iraq war and a different segment of RB expressed concerns. It’s not the art that is the subject of discssion here - the issue is that we damanged our impartiality (in the eyes of a significant portion of RB)”.

“My approach to mistakes is to admit them and move on. Learn the lesson.”

And I think it is fantastic if you do exercise very little control. But that is a matter of personal choice—there are bound to be some who wish you did exercise more control. And so on.

Your site is growing, and it’s therefore natural that policy will evolve a little. But it is likely to be problematic to develop it in such a reactionary way, as I have outlined above.

You should have a look at those links I provided, I think. The BBC one is very succinct. One key part of editorial impartiality is to diminish influence of external forces on your editorial decisions. One important factor in this, is ideally, that the commercial directors of the publication are seperated and respect this editorial independence themselves. In the case of a small publication with limited staff, compromises are inevitable, but I think definitely that you are not improving editorial independence in an already-compromised set-up, by bowing to the demands of a bunch of lobbyists who threaten to hurt your commercial enterprise if you don’t give in. If your editorial team was issuing markedly biased output, then that is one thing, but for ‘this might be interpreted wrong’, there is no grounds for apology or policy change, and as others have stated here, your reaction is more biasing than the initial ‘offensive’ homepage.

So by apologising, you both undermining your editorial independence, and biasing your publication in a deliberate way this time, not what was initially occuring of people ‘reading in’ to some minor and transient reflection of the site’s content.

The role of an editor in fact is to hold and express opinions. And their doing so helps the consumer of a media to make judgements about that media.

So to say that you don’t want editors to hold opinions is very odd. If you want that, then set the images to random, but I think you’ll find the site loses something in style. You must choose between style, tied to opinion, or lack-of-style .. style is what distinguished rb from other sites I’ve seen, so I think if you throw it away, it’s very sad.

It’s an art site. The primary measure of effectiveness of art is how it affects the emotion of the viewer. A good editor will make choices based on that criteria, more than on criteria of what it instilled in them. But a good art editor will also understand to their core the fundamental tenet that art is to cause you to react, but it is not able to determine how you react. That is your own issue, and without this investigation by the viewer of their own reactions, most artists today would dismiss their job as a waste of time.

It may be hard to promote an art site, without engaging this introspective outlook from the outset.

By the way, I know you’re not reading this. But I keep typing anyway. I’m really sorry I said nasty stuff about you, and that your opinion on this makes me think that you’re in the wrong job, you could do with some yoga retreats (like for about 5 years) and that rb is doomed to blandness, if not actually being turned to the forces of dark empire. I don’t like to make fun of people, I’m just quite passionate about our right to expression and liberty from overwhelming oppressive force.

In the west, the way that we expect opinion balance to be upheld in media, is by a diversity of media being available. Each one publication may hold a particular viewpoint—think Herald Sun vs Age here, but because we make proactive efforts to support a diversity of those media, then a diversity of viewpoints may be presented in ‘the media’. Yes, I recognise irony in this description, but this is still the theory that underlies Western Civilisation.

No-one expects a single publication to be everything to everyone, and that is true even in this technological maelstrom we call the internet. There is always another site, and a new one next week.

If you really do want a particular viewpoint to be represented, such as pro-military, then I think you should set that and let your editors express it (first hire editors who fell happy to do so).

But if you don’t, and you’ve hired some editors and told them the viewpoint they should represent, then after they say something, if you countermand them, it undermines them. You both lose. We lose, because we get a fake. Pro-military folk lose, because, well the site isn’t pro-military enough either, and the duplicity makes them look bad. Unless you and they’re super sekret intel guys, then I guess it looks real smart, cause you have a super sekret base that noone knows about.

“The staff (including me) are human and make mistakes.” Me too, I said ‘misogynyst’, and I really don’t know why. I went off down a paranoid anxiety fantasy about big brother watching me.

But please accept, that another mistake could be that when you return from holidays and find the place up-in-arms and under attack by netbots, that you might overreact and put yourself into a worse position. Where actually your position was not the problem, you’ve made it one.

It’s no biggy, but if you never see that, if you never realise that the front page showing a few pictures from the collection rotated every few hours is occaisionally going to have to show some controversial ones if it is to reflect what is inside, or else you would have to restrict what is inside too to match, then this small problem will have grown.

More of a problem for the artists whose views are kept from the front page, than for you … as I said above, the idea in the West is we have a diversity of media. Other sites will host those images. It’s just a pain in the butt for the artists to have to relocate.

Simeon

Simeon – thank you. I hope everyone takes time to read all you have said. I am especially in agreement when you say:

‘You already have a good, fair policy, and your editor followed it. Select some images, basically at random, but with some aesthetic element of theme, and whack them on the front page. Change them in X number of hours. Wash, rinse, repeat.”
and
“It’s an art site. The primary measure of effectiveness of art is how it affects the emotion of the viewer. A good editor will make choices based on that criteria, more than on criteria of what it instilled in them. But a good art editor will also understand to their core the fundamental tenet that art is to cause you to react, but it is not able to determine how you react. That is your own issue, and without this investigation by the viewer of their own reactions, most artists today would dismiss their job as a waste of time.”

the key word is ART and how excellent it is. Whether it has controversial content or not should be secondary. But I agree -it’s tricky!

Nice ignore, there Brian. Spoken like a true liberal…

Again I will ask:

Name one time in history that appeasement has ever worked.

And so far as knowing who I am, you have no idea who I am. I will give you a clue, if that is remotely possible: I am an American who is sick of listening to a bunch of people who are not American telling us what to do that is not in the best interests of our country, our people and our soldiers.

And a quick off the head list of countries we have helped, be it financially or militarily:

Australia
New Zealand
Israel
Finland
England
Scotland
Ireland
France
Belgium
Norway
Poland
Denmark
Italy
China
Japan
Indonesia
Myanmar
India
Pakistan
Afghanistan
Iran
Iraq
Spain
Portugal
Canada
Mexico
South Korea
Taiwan
Philippines
Every Country in Africa (47)
Every Country in Central America (7)
Every Country in South America (12)
The Bahamas
Aruba
Cuba
Jamaica
Thailand
Myanmar
Jordan
Saudi Arabia
Syria
Germany
Austria
Portugal
Russia

Hmm. I think my list kicks your list’s arse.

Have a wonderful day.

A point to ponder and then I am done with this thread.

Say I am a person should came upon this site and was looking at some of the art to purchase for my home or business and after going to one of the sellers page came upon this thread and those that lead up to this thread and after reading such name calling, and pointing fingers and banter back and forth between all the artist I for one would leave this site and search for someplace else to buy my art from because I for one would not want the works I purchased associated with all this ADULT attitude and NEGATIVITY. So just suppose that were the scenario and that being said I would tell my friends about this and they looked and did the same thing I would loose sales and possible potential friends from those sales and even if they did not buy then maybe they will at some future point and I still have gained a friend even though I didn’t sell anything.

Point: Threads like this should be between registered sellers only maybe. Just something to think about.

Just a thought and now I will return to my page and delete the thread.

Excellent point, Richard. I also wonder if some of the words said here would actually be said if we were all in a room face to face. Perhaps it’s best to try to only say what we would actually be comfortable saying in a coffee shop with people in person.

“I also wonder if some of the words said here would actually be said if we were all in a room face to face.”

In my case, absolutely. I would certainly have had something to say to JohnGo, but because I had to type it I thought about it first and decided it was pointless. There are no words.

I wonder why political art is always scrutinized? And who is anyone to judge what another considers art? I thought art is a way of bringing out creativity thru drawing, singing, photographs, dancing etc. yet some artist are degraded for their interpretation of how they feel about something. That is truly sad. As far as “hot topics” are concerned, I believe VERY STRONGLY there should be NO “hot topics” when any type of art is involved. Save the apology, I see no need for it!

By all means. Bring it on. I do not have a problem with anything I have said, either. Actually, I toned down what I would have said face to face to some of the people running their yaps here BECAUSE I had to type it.

So that said, Ivy, please let me hear you have to say. You have Bubblemail just like me. I am all ears, but may be all mouth if you don’t have your facts in a row.

I also love it when someone tries to tell a group of artists to not get so passionate about something. Guess what?! We are ARTISTS! We GET PASSIONATE. Maybe the ones telling people that aren’t artists. Who knows?

Ah, more censorship. Someone crys foul, and demands for changes. IF you find something offensive, you do have the option of not looking at or reading it by clicking your mouse. But maybe you do not have the ability to think for yourself and need someone to tell you what can and can not be art.

The UA plainly states:

• your content does not contain material that defames or vilifies any person, people, races, religion or religious group and is not obscene, pornographic, indecent, harassing, threatening, harmful, invasive of privacy or publicity rights, abusive, inflammatory or otherwise objectionable;

RB has plainly covered their butts and if you don’t like it, you can peddle the material that falls into that description elsewhere. It really is not censorship. They just want to avoid threads and issues like the ones that have risen from the supposed art. Just because something is created does not art make.

On the other hand, if you don’t like it, don’t buy it. Nobody has guaranteed you any right that you will not be offended in life. If you don’t like something it is safe to realize that someone somewhere will like it and your opinion is just that; yours. This PC movement of not offending anyone has resulted in the global phenomenon of every whining idiot, no matter how ridiculous or pathetic, having a say in how everything is done. It is a shame, actually.

I have little to say since dimsim covered most of my views so very well. I am surprised at how thin skined so many are and how self important so many of my fellow Americans are. The art work should not have been removed and anyone seeing it as a slap at anything was just in a bad mood that day.

Oh YEah and when these NAZI red bubble staffers, Actually Start Stealing your art , don’t come Whining to me , I’ll Just Say, ” I TOLD YOU SO!!” RED BUBBLE SUCKS!! OK?

Yes, and It is also a shame that You are all GETTING RIPPED OFF and don’t even seem to Know it… a shame , A terrible Shame … I will Shed a tear for you… Cause it is a shame WHat Red Bubble Is doing to ALL of you…

I thought the home page in question was simply an anti-WAR statement. A good one. I did not see the USA or Iraq mentioned. Would the reactions be different if the Russain Afghanistan war, or the Iraq Iran war was on at the moment. The statement would be the same. As far as a moderated forum goes- ban censorship.

The USA has to realise that they are 300,000,000 in a world of 6,500,000,000 . Get over the fact that the majority of the world does not agree with the USA.

Anti- the politicains that sent the soldiers to war does not mean anti- the soldiers.

As far as I am concerned, while choice A and B are the only choices, democracy and freedom do not exist. That is the choices.

Art for Arts’ sake.

What is art?

Well? Is it whatever an artist claims it is? That would beg the question, ‘who is qualified to self identify an artist?’ Reminiscent of a dog’s common activity, n’est pas? (No, not that one; I refer to chasing its tail.)

My inclination to identify art via the ruthless, but intrinsically fair, operation of a free market has the drawback of associating art with filthy lucre; as if that never happens. I, therefore, propose that art, if it is to be adjudicated as something of value, which I claim it must be to someone, needs to have a modicum of creativity. The latter attribute obtains whenever an activity produces negative entropy. Put another way, art, at a minimum, needs to be distinguishable from a product of random activity.

If TheBigHenry produces a sketch, that sketch is not art because it is indistinguishable from random scribbles. If a blindfolded woman drinks a bottle of tequila, swallows the worm, and then picks up a bucket of paint and throws it at the wall in her bathroom, she hasn’t produced a work of art, by similar reasoning. If Marcel Duchamp paints “R. Mutt 1917” on a discarded urinal and submits it as a work of art, he is joking, but you never really know …

I am new to Redbubble and have read a large part of this thread, although not all. I think it is a shame that it was felt neccesary to issue an apology regarding the page containing what I saw as some good examples of Redbubble artwork.

It was themed. It contained some strong images which are pertinent to today’s world.

I wonder if some of the ignorant commentators in this thread would like every gallery in the world, every publication with illustrations, every piece of newsfootage that deals with the subject of war to be removed for fear of causing offence? Maybe a few book burnings would be in order? In the true tradition of censorship and mind control.

People think, whether certain others like it or not. I personally find war in itself offensive; a terrible example of how humans are the most aggressive and destructive creatures on this planet. I am not so simplistic as to think it can be avoided because as long as there are aggressors there will be a need to defend.

I do not feel that all wars are justifiable, generally an element of greed or meglomania seems to be involved. However, it is out there, and like everything else on the planet or in peoples imaginations is a fair topic for art. Everything is a fair topic for art; however I agree with others that I would prefer not to see child pornography or violence being condoned. Which is why I feel safe to use Redbubble.

However, this will probably be the last time I ever bother to contribute my opinion to threads like this which start with a reasonable response from Peter, put in a difficult situation by small minded people and disintigrates into rants and aggressive and offensive rubbish by many of the contributors to this thread.

I admire those within this thread who have attempted to have a rational discussion but it is certainly wasted on many of the contributors.

The most useful aspect of this thread, to me, is that I now know who I certainly would not want to bother talking to and maybe a few who I could respect. I am not going to bother to be anymore specific than that because I think it should be pretty obvious to anyone who is vaguely interested, not that I believe anyone is.

God help Redbubble – (not that I am religious, but I cannot think of how else to put this…) may it continue to be an unbiased gallery for art. Those wanting to force their political opinions upon it and it’s artists in a restrictive way should maybe set up their own forums elsewhere.

Ok, I take back what I said about it being the last time I contribute to threads like this and having gone back and read more of this thread, most of it now, I would like to say firstly you have a beautiful little girl Peter.
Secondly, I do not think Redbubble is run by Desperate Houswives for schoolgirls. Thirdly, I love cats, flowers and sunsets and work by John Douglas, amongst many other thought provoking artists.
I appreciate that it is very difficult to maintain a non-biased site when called upon to apologise for something which never claimed to reflect any kind of editorial bias. I also don’t think the page did show the so-called anti-Americanism it has been accused of by some.
In the true old Hippy tradition – Love and Peace to all at Redbubble

@julieburnaby: “I wonder if some of the ignorant commentators in this thread would like every gallery in the world, every publication with illustrations, every piece of newsfootage that deals with the subject of war to be removed for fear of causing offence [sic]?”

Since when did support for a system of legitimate scrutiny mean supporting unrestricted scrutiny, irrespective of medium and/or complete disregard of freedom of expression? I believe the above statement is yet another adversarial “argument” that is framed on the basis of what I will call compressio ad absurdum. The gist of this strategy is as simple as it is trivializing — and false, namely: for any situation having a continuum (or a countable multiplicity) of variations between the extrema, pretend that only the extrema exist. In other words, compress all the possible variations such that only the extrema are considered, thereby establishing (false) plausibility for absurd assertions.

It is frustrating, for me at least, to have to defend a position that has been compressed in this fashion by someone skilled in such manipulative argumentation, albeit not necessarily sophisticated enough to even realize what (s)he has done.

WOW!! How do I get THIS many people replying to MY posts?! :)

Dunno Lachlan, although I’m manipulatively argumentative I’m not suffisticated enough to answer that. Maybe I can find an online course in it? ;-) Not even sure if I’m male or female right now…

I’m afraid there’s no reasoning with closed-minded bigots. Some part of their brain function has been permanently disabled either by nature or nurture. They will never change and it’s a pity that there seem to be more and more of them popping up in the world. Blame it on the rise of fascist/hate media and their influence on the weak of mind.
Not too long ago, the monumental Picasso painting ‘Guernica’ hanging in the entrance hall of the UN building in NYC had to be covered up at the request of the US State Department. The painting’s depiction of the absolute horrors of war were just too much for a government which was about to bomb the crap out of another country. The public must never know the real truth and the ‘offensive’ masterpiece was covered lest Colin Powell be photographed with it as a backdrop having just declared war on Iraq. Best thing to do, is to ignore these bigots if at all possible.

The lenght and breadth of this journal is a pure and simple reason that RB should not feel constrained about home page content and being politically correct. Controversy is OK.

Look at the quality of the debate in this 11 day old journal (apart from the odd personal abuse). The views expressed represent the diversity of opinions and cultures that exist in this world.

So that can’t be a bad thing.

From my perspective a pro war, anti war, pro abortion, anti abortion, political, religious, athiest, smoker, non-smoker themed home page is OK, as long as it doesn’t dominate RB, there is balance and RB does become identified as a ‘this or that wing’ forum.

And from my perspective the most offensive thing I have seen on a RB is today’s homepage with a picture of a young female smoking :-)

Nitrams and Reflexio – well said :-)

@nitrams:”... no reasoning … closed-minded bigots … brain function … permanently disabled … fascist/hate … weak of mind … public must never know the real truth … ignore these bigots …”

What, no aspersions on matrilineal ancestors? Admirable self-restraint from a dispenser of “the real truth” (not to be confused with “the imaginary truth”).

I am new here. I don’t know any of you. This is my first post (hope not the last), and I might already offend some people, but that’s it, it’s impossible to please everybody. What I have to say it’s a matter of principle. When I hear about deciding what is appropriate and what is not, what is offensive and what is not, I feel sick. My heart aches.

Because this is censorship and it’s a short and straight path to dictatorship. And many of you do not know what this is really like. Until you (and your parents and your grandparents) live it and experience it first hand, you don’t know anything about it.

THEY all do it to protect you. THEY know what is good and what is bad for you. THEY will provide your confort, and you will let them. Then you will only say what THEY allow you to say. Finally you will think only what THEY allow you to think (and hell is not such a bad place after all…).

Do I offend anybody? Ignore me! As long as I don’t force YOU to think, say and do like ME, it’s my right to do what I want, and I will use my right.

One’s art will always offend someone, no matter what. Get over it.

“But perhaps the most important thing we can all build is a culture that’s accepting of ‘hot’ topics. A culture where things can be debated and discussed without it becoming personal. A culture where openness is encouraged and patience is shown. A culture where we strive to respect different perspectives.”
- And THAT is why I joined redbubble and love it

isnt the whole point of art to make people think? i can understand why redbubble maybe should not be in politics to a degree but nearly every well known and up and coming artist has made some political statement by a producing a piece of work… and of course red bubble promotes our work.. its not a huge deal
its a fantastic site

Well same old stuff hey….. when are we going to grow up and accept that we are all different (and have different opnions) No matter what you do there will always be someone who is offended. Anyway I think your on the right track, Art is a form of expression and opinion, yes set your benchmarks but leave some room for inspiration and thought before it is all crushed in political correctness?*!!