Jo O'Brien

Welll. i personally didn’t find anything offensive either and i must add that i am a raving feminist and a bit of a prude….you can’t please everybody Jo…that’s the nature of art…of course you can push things to far,I just don’t think you have…

Let me quote anonymously:

“My concern is the provocative nature of a lot of the shots have and will continue to attract a seedy male audience. Maybe your works would be more appropriately shown in one of the male mags out there,such as people or picture.”

“this image probably sails just a dash too close to the wind”

Jo, what can I say, I thought your images were worthwhile you posting. I Enjoyed their artistic merit and expression of them and I found nothing I would consider offensive. Whether that’s because I’m hard to offend or because your stuff is great, I’m probably a biased judge because I liked them.
Etienne x

Pfft….No shit…it may very well attract seedy types…so…your images also attract those who appreciate them for their artistic merit…the female body is beautiful…not shameful and if people want to take a different view to this you can’t stop them.

people will always have different opinions when it comes to art like yours.
it might be a good idea if you could have a folder somewhere where all the work you think might offend would be and you can link to it. or something along those lines.. maybe

I don’t or haven’t seen ANYTHING you have posted that reminds me of a men’s magazine Jo :( I don’t understand???

Thanks Craig, and everyone who has commented here. I’m really upset so I’m trying not to say things I don’t really mean.

I’ll sleep on it and maybe comment tomorrow. I’ll just rant if I try to comment now.

I find nothing offensive in what you have posted, in fact I hadn’t quite finished looking at them all (because I got sidetracked by the funny kitty website you linked to in the other thread!) and now am a bit miffed they’ve gone – not at you, Jo but at the small mindedness that seems to floating about out there. Nudes have always been a part of artistic expression and, no doubt, ever will be and some art has always offended some people for all sorts of different reasons. I really don’t have an answer for you, I can only say that would hate to see us pandering to what I suspect is a minority and restricting artistic freedom.

Hey Jo,

I haven’t got any answers, but I think you’re a brave person who is just trying to do the right thing.

Honestly, the line is different for different people, and you’ll never be able to make everyone happy.

Re: attracting “seedy males”. Unfortunately, the nature of stereotypical seedy males (which is no one I’ve encountered on RB so far) is that they can take anything (e.g., the latest Target Ladieswear catalogue) and turn it into a porno in their minds. That’s their problem.

Re: children. While I appreciate that folks would like this site to be safe for children, I honestly doubt that this is possible, for ANY kind of public art site*, and some kind of age restriction/disclaimer/warning/consent screen should apply.

• Unless the site is insanely restrictive and stipulates: no partial or full nudity, no weapons, sharp objects, guns or other firearms, no depictions or allusions to death (human or animal), no violence or implication of violence, no scary monsters, no dismembered animal or human parts etc.

Personally, I like your work. It’s honest, wry and thought-provoking. Keep your chin up!

Argh, have no idea why that second-last paragraph is in large font. I must’ve typed a reserved symbol in there by mistake. Sorry!

This is how that line should read, sorry for messing up your comments!

Re: children. While I appreciate that folks would like this site to be safe for children, I honestly doubt that this is possible, for ANY kind of public art site*, and some kind of age restriction/disclaimer/warning/consent screen should apply.

* Unless the site is insanely restrictive and stipulates: no partial or full nudity, no weapons, sharp objects, guns or other firearms, no depictions or allusions to death (human or animal), no violence or implication of violence, no scary monsters, no dismembered animal or human parts etc.

Well I didn’t see the removed images in anything but the thumbnail version. I don’t know if it was due to the smaller size but I didn’t see anything that would cause it to be flagged as inappropriate. I went back and looked at the pictures that haven’t been removed and don’t see a “pornographic” quality to any of them unless the presence of a nipple automatically makes an image pornographic.

I’m still relatively new to the site and have had a wonderful time here. The only thing that worries me is this artistic nude/pornography debate. I have not taken any nude photos. In the future if I have some quality nude images I’m not sure I would post them just to avoid the whole mess.

I agree, nothing you posted is offensive. The basic position at RedBubble (I am a cofounder) is that everything on the site should be suitable for showing to a primary school audience. But primary schools audiences regularly go to art galleries which have nudes in them. Nudity is NOT offensive if dealt with in an artistic way. My 8 year old daughter loves RedBubble and has a bit of a giggle at the nudity but she knows that people get naked. Kids dont have nearly as much of a problem with this as adults (sex, sexual violence, bdsm etc is out).

We also will not take things (or ask for them to be taken down) just because one or more people complain. Some people get more offended than others by artistic images. Well a lot of good art is confronting and we support good art. People complained about Picasso – I would hope we would have supported Picasso if we had of been around then. But, for example, we would not post Mapplethorpes homoerotic images, even though they are artistic, because they we are simply more graphic than an 8 year old should be exposed to (in our view).

If you think it is suitable for a primary school audience dont get concerned we are not prudes. But obviously due caution with nudes and consideration is required. The artistic bar has to be higher. And if you take a bit of flack I wouldnt be too worried.

If only to add my support to your legions of fans Jo, I don’t have any problem with anything you’ve posted either. I think your anonymous quote sounds a bit over-cautious with regard to what is problematic. Like Craig says, nothing you’ve posted seems any more explicit than what you could see in any men’s mag.

The attitude that you have in not wishing to offend anyone is commendable, but I wonder if it’s ever possible, particularly when posting nudes or semi-nudes. If you’re that worried, perhaps it would be worth your while contacting someone from your watchlist that you trust and asking them to give their opinion on the photos that you upload. If that person thinks they’re OK then they probably are. Just a suggestion. :-D

If we’re not careful we’re going to end up with a site full of kitten pictures… ;-)

Your work is beautiful Jo and so is the female body.

Some folks clench their sphincters far too tightly I feel :O)

the thing is.. we cannot control our minds.. what is sexual to one could be ziltch sexual energy for some.. for example, lets say a person gets turned on looking at toes or feet… and gets off on it lookin photos of womens feet.. What we gonna do then? How we gonna stop the seedy men/women then?
I think each artist should just double check with themselves before they post any ‘probably offensive’ artpieces – and just ask themselves what energy it produces, usually the answer lies within you…. if u see it as sexual…. it probably have that energy.. but u cannot control (or want to) what each person sees it ‘see’ gets from it.. If u could… well, it wouldnt be art anymore, would it?

I bet the person that wrote u .. was prob really disturbed by this bit of ‘porn’ u had in your portfolio.. ^hehehe.. (cuz i couldnt find anything that was offensive, etc)

I put up 60 odd Scottish Clan Badges done in tartan here at RB! Would you believe someone got miffed at the amount of “tartan” I displayed. I’d obviously overstepped a boundary/guideline I had no idea existed at the time. These same images were promptly removed and are now over at Zazzle and selling -:))))

Chin up Jo!!!

I’m a little shocked by all of this and a little shocked at the ones that have been pulled.. I am a mother (and a damned good one at that) of 2 beautiful girls 10 & 12 I showed them the photos raw and worked and they had no problem with them and were certainly not emabrrassed by them… So I guess if I can show my children then they ca’t be that bad. Sorry Jo I can’t draw you that line….

Hi Jo, I am not sure what images are causing problems. I see nothing wrong with the current ones in your portfolio. Indeed they are clearly artistic shots.

My only concern was with that naked cat. And was that some sort of leather bondage collar it is wearing. Shame on you! (Insert one of those winking icons). Best wishes, Michelle.

I think possible the most offensive thing here was the nature of the criticism, to imply that someone’s work is more appropriate for a lowbrow smut magazine for simpletons, is as far as I’m concerned, more offensive than nudity.

I for one am more offended that the narrow opinions of some people may influence the content that we , as educated and responsible adults, are able to view. Parents can make the individual decision on whether they allow their children to view this website knowing full well that this is not ‘The Wiggles’ or ‘Thomas The Tank Engine’. And adults who don’t like what they see, can exercise a simple form of intelligence by not looking.

I think there are some things that ALL of us would deem offensive, for example … an erect male penis. Or a woman with her legs splayed open …. or penetration, you know. I think as a society those things are known to be on the other side of the line. We all (well I think so anyway) enjoy our sexuality freely behind closed doors and that is great, we are then free to express with (hopefully) our loved life partner anything we wish. For some though, that line can be dragged a little either way (or maybe a lot in some cases). What is porn for me may not be for someone else. What is ART for me, maybe someone else’s Porn. What some people would let their kids look at no problems, others would blush and say no way. So it IS very subjective and as such we will alway offend someone. With that said … I hate censorship as such. I think we should all be allowed to express ourselves freely to other like minded people (and that includes porn btw) If there is an interest in something … there should not be a restriction on sharing that with others who may wish to view and discuss it. BUT ….. there needs to be ways in which we can DO this and at the same time give others their freedom and right not to HAVE to see it. At the moment in Red Bubble …. there is no way for us to neither flag our works as offensive (POV) nor is there a way for people to set an adult filter to NOT show works deemed as maybe adult in nature. For me, that would be the way to go. That way we can upload works deemed maybe offensive of adult, flag them as such … and those who don’t want to view them simply set a filter in their account not to show works flagged as such. It’s a win win situation … and no censorship. Whether that will ever be implemented here remains to be seen.

Hi Jo, I’m really sorry that you’ve received that/those emails and felt that you should remove the pics. Personally I would have been offended from an artistic point of view if I had receive those kinds of comments. I doubt a serious artist or someome who regularly visited galleries would have acted in such a way. Some of the purposes of art are to reflect society, to question and to confront.

I had a think about all this and for now I think the best solution for me is not to publish any nudes. Even if I think they are completly artistic. If at some point I am able to flag nudes as potential adult material, I’ll start putting them up again. I’ve just been struck down twice in a row so I think that’s the safest option for the time being.

I realise that I can’t avoid offending all people. But I can wait until there is a way to warn of possible adult content. That could mean some sort of flagging, it could mean being able to sort my portfolio into folders. I’m not sure. But for now everything gets thrown in together and it isn’t working. I don’t like being told my work has upset someone or having it implied that because I post nudes, I’m not a proper artist. And even if I am overreacting, it doesn’t change that people felt they needed to email me about it which in my eyes is bad enough.

I really appreciate everyone’s comments here and in the forums. I really hope that at some point there will be an ‘answer’ to this. In the meantime, please enjoy my photos of my cat.

Jo – one or two comments saying remove it should not make you remove it ESPECIALLY if you have received more comments that are positive. In my opinion (grin) the only time it should get removed is if Redbubble Gods decide it should be so. (I confess that I haven’t read the complete thread here) but I’m with Craig, I haven’t seen a thing of yours that has actually offended me. Occasionally on Redbubble I see images I don’t like because of their content or whatever (and I can’t remember if they’re yours or not) BUT NONE THAT I HAVE FELT INAPPROPRIATE!!!!!!!!!!!! (and I haven’t like them only because they don’t appeal to me – but I would never expect my taste should censor others!!!) I understand why you might worry about the negative comments – no one likes to offend. gosh, I had one for my creativeitch drawing of ET because they felt I was cheating (yet RB put it there in the first place) and I confess I felt a bit upset by the way this person said ‘REMOVE IT’.

You have heaps here who love your work – don’t let the yowsers get you down.
:o)

Wow it’s the endless argument isn’t it? Red Rag would be proud (‘cept it’s not nearly angry enough for him :0) Look Jo, I didn’t see the shots but I’m familiar with your work. You can’t control how people take your shots and clearly lot’s of people (see above) love them. So it looks like you have a herd of fans. The tricky bit for RB is at what point do they take things down? After one criticism after two? Bad PR could blow this site outta the water so they have to be careful (don’t believe that crap about any publicity being good publicity). Political correctness??? Ooooh don’t get me started! On another note ArtAfresh you had A COMPLAINT AGAINST TOO MUCH TARTAN??? AND YOU HAD TO TAKE IT DOWN?? YOU ARE KIDDING ME??? Or is it just because my surname is Kerr that I’m outraged????

There’s nothing in your portfolio that, in my thinking, is even vaguely offensive. You draw your own lines, girl!

well, this is just great isn’t it? you’ve been bullied into taking my favourite picture of the series down again. This is what is really pissing me off about the debate lately. I was trying to be really on both sides to start with but now i’m just angry. I understand people’s uneasiness with certain pictures, but don’t understand why they need to ruin it for everyone that enjoys them. These thumbnails come up so tiny in this RB world, all you need to do if you see a glimpse of something you don’t like is just ignore it and go to the next page. I am a huge fan of Egon Schiele’s work. He’s a well respected artist and is taught to students at art school, yet if he were to put any of his works up here, people would go nuts at him. The reason I like to hang out here is that I feel people are open minded, imaginative and creative. But after the last week or two, I just feel like brick by brick a wall is being built and it’s really putting me off. So what if a minority think it attract the wrong kind of sleezy people. there are foot fetishists and other kinky things going on out there, they could be oggling any picture on the RB gallery, we would never know. Just because they both look great in the picture and could be ‘enjoyed’ by a few audience members in the wrong way doesn’t mean they are not also fantastic images they should be incredibly proud of. I saw a gallery exhibition in Fitzroy the other day of close up images of genitalia, an open for all gallery. now can you imagine someone strutting in asking for everything to be taken off the wall immediately? if i had to draw a line, there wouldn’t be one Jo, sorry. I will now try and constrain myself from ever talking about this topic again.

Now now Jo …. photos of your cat Jo. ;) Is there some Irony in there :P ^HAHAHA

Jo…I think part of being an artist and putting your work out to the world is also being brave enough to accept any feedback that you get from this…that is all the emails you got were…feedback…just the same as the wonderful support and feedback you are getting here…take it as it is…just someones oppinion on your work and stand up for your artistic merit by leaving your work up…and adding more…you have their email address now you can send any new work directly to them ;)

Hi Jo, I had a look at those photos last night and didn’t think they were offensive…. Like everyones been saying, if you don’t like it then don’t look at it, no ones forcing anyone to click on that thumbnail….. From all the debate about it though, would seem like a good idea if redbubble did come up with some sort of warning if images had the potential to offend/upset etc…

haha, artemis74, i loooove that, you are too cute. but yes, on another note Jo, I copped a fair bit of crap for my destitution picture for other reasons obviously, but believe me having your humanity questioned because you have an image for sale isn’t exactly nice to read and i’ve been a tad upset about a few comments here and there, but my dad urged me to leave the picture up. you can’t control what other people see in your image, the view will always be different and let me tell you i’m a very thin skinned person when it comes to criticism, but sometimes you just have to be brave. how are you going to convince other people if it looks as though you’re not convinced yourself? hang in there buddy and we’ll have a drink to it on friday x

Oh no Melinda…I didn’t have to take them down at all. I was embarassed actually and didn’t want to upset the applecart as a newbie. I hadn’t quite figured out the ins and outs around RB at that time…who was who etc and who exactly that person was who complained at the time. Got no recollection of the name. I had to figure in the end that what I’d put up for T-Shirt designs were too much in one hit perhaps, all very similar maybe, boring, not appropriate, whatever!!! I just moved on with them…!

Just to clarify- I stand by my work BUT RedBubble is not my site and when I’m a guest in someone’s house I play by their rules.

I’m in the process of organising my own website and let me tell you- I will post whichever of my works I want to on it, with relevant warnings. The reason I’m entering into this discussion is that RedBubble has such a high standard of work and I want to preserve that. I want to respect this community which I value so much.

The site developers have indicated they’d be willing to support an ‘Adult’ flag on images that’d make them not show to those who have an issue with them. That’s fine with me, so long as people can simply choose to see them and don’t have to jump through hoops to “prove” they are legally adult or anything. I don’t think that things that require proof of adult status should really be on the site anyway – and artistic nudity generally doesn’t require that; art galleries display that kind of stuff without batting an eye.

I find there comment offensive. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, sure. But that is practically preaching. Ridiculous. They should go to the NGV and see all the open minded people checking out the Guggenheim. Of all ages and genders and disposissions ( i assume, i didn’t interview any of them).

Shame for his/her kids growing up with such views.

I think the community, on the whole, is behind you and others who are putting up their interpretations of art.

I’m angry.

Am i missing something??? why are you being targeted with this bullshit…

awesome jo… i want to cry that this debate is so full on, i hope you got my comment in the forum, i was going to say that you should link to your own site until redbubble are set (i think people forget they are still in preview). /

I really need to state here and you know this one jo, there is at least one person that a few of us have become wierded out by here (pointed out by another male member who i feel is looking out for us) and i have definately viewed images that some have uploaded including sex, I know what that is! ... /

like your perspective webgrrl!

I’m already on the bandwagon with tagging things as nsfw (not safe for work). I’m optimistic that this move will defuse a lot of this.

I’ve loved reading your comments Kathleen. It’s good to know that there are people out there with some of that (increasingly uncommon) common sense!

I want to say that your perspective here on this topic specifically has enriched this so much because you have the respect for the company that is providing this for us but you also understand your own self expression tendancies and how to manage that in a community… I have soooo much respect for you for that alone, let alone your motivation to create… power to ya girl…

Jo, It is the responsibility of the teacher or the parent to preview what they are showing their young children. If they didn’t want them viewing your work, then they shouldn’t have been on your page. This had nothing to do with you. I like your work. Don’t take it down.

If you really want a line drawn consider this… The definition of Pornography is: The explicit depiction or exhibition of sexual activity in a photography. This quite simply put would be touching yourself or another person in a sexual way in a photo. Pure nudity (being clean) does not count. Of course, any nudity of a minor is considered pornography.

Again, I loved your site. I hope to see more soon.
K…

Hi Jo,

Personally I love your work, I think it is raw and interesting, which is something that a lot of Art in this world is sadly missing due to our over protective society.

Just let what ever has been be and deal with what comes up as it does.

Perhaps, rather than removing work that has been commented on, you could make it available via a link, with some kind of stupid warning, like some people may be offended. I know that you have done something like that before.

Anyway, you keep on creating in the knowledge that most of us love it!

See you tomorrow night at Monties! I am bringing another RB friend of mine Jodi Webb.

Hi Jo, I agree with Kara in that I believe if there are parents who are concerned about what their children might see, then, like any other programme where this might occur, the parents should sit with their children and supervise what is viewed. As long as your images are in your own personal portfolio, this should be okay. We all have choices about whose portfolios we wish to browse through – if we don’t like someone’s work, we can “change channels” and look at other work. However, I think where you may upset some people is when images that are viewed as “controversial” or “undesirable” by others are actually displayed in your journal entries, and people have no choice but to see them (whether they like it or not) when scrolling through journals to comment. I see RedBubble as an art gallery with many rooms. Some of those rooms will have work that will offend some people, but there are plenty of other rooms to browse through. It’s the same with stories, there are some stories that people won’t like either. The artist needs to be his/her own judge on these issues.

Charlotte- today is Wednesday, meet up is FRIDAY (not tomorrow- Thursday)

Oh, and I meant to add – artists aren’t necessarily always creating to please the rest of the world anyway, so you will always find opposition somewhere.

Good point Whirligig

I love all your stuff. Maybe if Redbubble doesn’t then you should take the stuff they don’t like and display in your own website. Will redbubble let you link to it? I dunno just a suggestion.

Hey Alan, I always love getting your comments. Not so crash hot on the picture, mainly because it isn’t relevant to the discussion. Thanks hun.

(Um, it’s like TV hey? If you don’t like the art, just turn it off).

In my opinion true art is meant to challenge, provoke a response, effect the viewer, and be memorable.

A viewer brings with them their psycological history, their personal insecurities and boundaries. An artist can’t be responsible for what people take away from the work, but they can hope to make a difference.

I once shot a model who had recently been skiing, and she had some small bruises on her leg. As I prefer reality to retouched images, I left them there in the final shots, but it certainly wasn’t the focal point. Later a friend accused me of demeaning women because it reminded her of another art piece she had seen elsewhere of a battered woman!

I can’t define art vs porn. Many have tried. It’s a grey line, in the eye of the beholder.

I think an artist SHOULD be accountable for bland work. So chin up, don’t be censored, and go for it. If your work is attracting some negative comments, maybe you’re pushing it. Whatever, sometimes, that’s art!

- Darryl.

WoW this would have to be one of the longest ever Journal entries, I came on for a quicky before I have to get dinner organzied, mmm god knows what we are having now. LOL

I think you should put this in a book for me to read later, or second thoughts don’t worry about it Jo, doesn’t matter which site you are on this becomes a storm in a tea cup. I am gulity of similar type work, I reckon if you don’t like it ….....don’t LOOK. We were such a happy family a few weeks ago…................Now what’s happened.
xkc

P.S. If RedBubble has a problem then we should know about it, anyone else, please find somewhere else to play….......
P.P.S. You go Girl….....

waiting now for hit on head…......

Yes You Go Girl… thanks I guess that covers the legal ends then This new filter ?? Thanks a bunch…

No probs

Hi Jo – Your title “someone draw the line for me” – well I guess for those who need a line drawn, there is the new filter.

On a slightly different note – I’m thinking a collaboration is in order here – just seeing all your work and thinking, “if only Jo had a Bettie Page fringe, I’d photograph her in some retro pin-up style scenarios!”... let me know what you think .(We are about 15-20 mins away from each other)

never underestimate the power of a hair piece or clever placement of bobby pins!

I draw alot of nudity art my nephew asked me why i draw women only… i said I do draw men but..if i drew more men than women, some of my mates may think there is something wrong with me, due to I love the oppisite sex rather than the male side, no offence guys.