Lee Martin

Alan Findlater, 2 months ago

Seeing the light then Lee, the last time I called for these groups to stop this all hell broke loose.

milton, 2 months ago

Couldn’t agree more. Some have restrictive rules like only watercolour despite the fact that artists have used pen and watercolour and other mixed media for years. But if it’s got pen strokes or anything other than watercolour it can’t get in. This is what used to be called censorship. Elitism should I agree be stopped.

Debbie Black, 2 months ago

Hope A Photographer’s Craft isn’t targeted here hun :) We are invite only so we can get all set up and established and we know everything is “just so” to make it a more pleasurable experience for current and future members. :)

Lee Martin in reply to Alan Findlater’s comment, 2 months ago

Well lets hope it breaks loose again Alan, i’m sick of it.

Thanks for your comment

Lee Martin in reply to Debbie Black’s comment, 2 months ago

So once set up, will you be removing the “invite only”

Lee Martin in reply to milton’s comment, 2 months ago

Thank you for your time Milton

Helen Bascom KMA, 2 months ago

Lee, groups are a good thing, but I don’t understand why RB would create the by invitation only group. That sort of thing leads to elitism and exclusivity – not the sense of community RB claims to be trying to foster.

But even if RB did not permit by invitation only groups, elitist minded people would discriminate against those whose work doesn’t measure up by simply making all submissions on approval and then disapproving every work submitted.

People are going to behave badly no matter what RB does or doesn’t do, BUT invitation only groups serve only to encourage elitism and gangs (as you called them).

Some of these groups remind me of the country club elites. Everyone thinks they want to be part of the club until they get in and realize how superficial and self important the members are. They will fall by the wayside as the community grows.

Debbie Black, 2 months ago

I’m not the only host so I can’t guarantee anything as it all goes to vote.
I can however guarantee that the group is not “elitist” and we don’t judge whether and artist’s work is “good enough” for the group – once a member has joined it is their own perogative as to the choosing of their “best work” :) Members currently in the group all have areas of “responsibility” and they are adjusting their forums to suit their area of expertise :)

Lee Martin in reply to Helen Bascom KMA’s comment, 2 months ago

Thanks Helen, thanks for your support

Howard Widdison, 2 months ago

I agree wholey in principal but we all have the power to vote with our feet….just don’t join the groups that are invite only…simple as that..There are plenty of other groups out there. Also If people want to be “elitist” then let them. Whether the groups are banned or not it won’t stop them from being elitist on here at all. I for one know that the standard of my work is not any where near as good as many others on here but i am still immensly proud of the work i have produced and i don’t need to join a group to be told its worthy. I simply showcase my work on here for others to enjoy…...if they don’t then i am sorry, but for those of you that do and take the time to tell me about it, then thank you because it is you that encourages me to produce better pictures. If the invite only people want to blow there own trumpets amongst themselves then let them it makes no difference to me, i will just carry on regardless and steer clear of those groups.

Lee Martin, 2 months ago

Howard, firstly thank you very much for your thoughts.

Secondly, you are a fine photographer and would say we have trodden the same ground at some point.

jenndes, 2 months ago

Lee: I’m so glad that you’ve “stuck your neck out” to say something. I think there’s many of us who feel this same way. I know, quite frankly, these exclusive groups anger me. I think people who feel the need to be part of a “special” exclusive group tend to be people with low self-esteem who need extra “petting” or self-assurance. When I started the “Stop and Smell the Roses” group one of my primary goals was that artists of ALL levels could submit work and feel included/welcome – that we could all learn from one another. I’m not a super stellar photographer – view myself more as mid-level, and although I do truly appreciate and value other’s compliments, I don’t feel excluding someone else would make me an ounce of a better photographer. In fact, I feel the exact opposite. The more photography of others that I view, the better I become. There is something to learn from everyone – everyone has something to offer. That is why I joined RB.

Lee Martin in reply to jenndes’s comment, 2 months ago

Nice to hear from another host, and I just hope it stirs up a storm.

I adore your group, so superbly run.

J.K. York, 2 months ago

there are well over 500 groups on RB. if a few want to be invite only, so what? hell, people in groups rarely look at the gallery of the group they are in let alone go surfing other groups they are not a part of. being a group host is difficult if you want the group to stay focused on its core description.

I find that the Photographer’s Craft Group has more interaction and more member participation over the regular “deposit my image here and forget about it groups.” So what’s wrong with hosts choosing who is going to be in their group if their goal is to promote a certain atmosphere of interaction that they want? why do you let it get under your skin?

why not start the “I hate groups group?” I was in the military, but never saw combat. Should I be pissed off because the local VFW won’t make me a member? No, they have criteria that I respect and don’t meet. Do I cry about it?

I recounted. 550 groups.

Cheers, James

Lee Martin in reply to J.K. York’s comment, 2 months ago

Thank you for your opinion, glad to see you got your invite to The Photographers Craft.

An obvious comment from someone already in an elitist group.

Good Luck

J.K. York, 2 months ago

I forgot to add that I run a group that is wide open to everyone with no approval process. I think you missed my point Lee.

Also I would like to know how many other groups are actively working to donate out of pocket to global charities as the Photographer’s Craft is? I guess that makes us “elitist?”

Alan Findlater, 2 months ago

No J.K. I think its you that may have missed the point, people invest time and effort in a group they come to see that group as a place they belong, then the hosts decide to change the rules and start to run the group in any way they wish, in many cases against the wishes of a lot of the members. They become doctorial in there attitude with common threats like “if you do not like it you can always leave”,
they start to believe that they and they alone as hosts are able to pick and choose what work is of a high enough standard to be allowed into the group, “where did they gain this knowledge”? groups should be open to all and we stand or fall by the quality or lack off, off our work. The problem starts when those that make the rule cannot see the other point of view.

Nancy Fischer, 2 months ago

Lee, you know how crazy I am about you but I guess what strikes me as odd in this entry is that you are a member of that group and you knew the guidelines when you joined, didn’t you? what changed your mind? i quite honestly did not think you were the type to belong to a group like that and know you joined very early on but your overall demanor, now that i’ve gotten to know you better is one of equality at all costs. enlighten me. what changed your mindset . it’s going to strike a lot of people as odd that someone that IS a member of that group and has been for a while, although you say you will leave it and i am sure you will wrote a journal entry like this. so help us understand your change of heart. with love, nancy

Dana DiPasquale, 2 months ago

I agree that some groups portray the elitist attiitude, but the solution is simple – don’t accept their invitation if it is not something you are interested in. I have done exactly that with a couple of invitation only groups.

In some circumstances, invitation only is used as a means of crowd control, not a judgement of work quality. If you have a group where the main focus is to have a high level of interaction among all members, who view their art as more than a hobby, which is directed at accomplishing specific tasks, this would be virtually impossible in a group of 300 or more people. The group I co-host does not discriminate based on work quality – we look for people with a specific skill set usually centerred around the business of photography, and willingness to help and share in a small, nurturing community. In this case, it is not elitism; it is good organization – taking on what you can effectively manage.

Lee Martin in reply to Nancy Fischer’s comment, 2 months ago

I did join IPA very early on and thought that it was kinda cool to be a part of something “exclusive”, but I think that whilst RB has grown so quickly, why should there be any groups that doesn’t include everyone that has taken the time to join rb.I have thought long and hard about this and we are all equals, no one is in charge, as such, so I dont feel it’s right that anyone should be excluded from showing their work. Yes ok there are lots of levels and a variety of standards but if a group is set up for “master photographers” how are the beginners going to learn.
I gave someone some tips about light trails today, and the buzz I got from helping someone else venture into a new genre was huge, they were so pleased that I helped. And for me thats what it’s all about, helping those that dont know and being one big HAPPY family.

L
xx

Lee Martin in reply to J.K. York’s comment, 2 months ago

J.K your Macro group is one of my personal favourites and I seriously appreciate your imput

Susan King, 2 months ago

Well said, I agree with all you have said Redbubble is a community for all

Lee Martin in reply to Dana DiPasquale’s comment, 2 months ago

Hi Dana, can I ask if you are going to cap the number of people you are going to have in that group. Surley it would be better to allow allcomers to bring new and fresh ideas to the group rather than have a select few that could end up hitting a brick wall.

Lee Martin in reply to Susan King’s comment, 2 months ago

Hi Susan, nice to hear from you, thanks for you comment x

Dana DiPasquale, 2 months ago

As of right now we do not have any plans for a cap as long as we can successfully have everyone involved. That is the most important aspect for us. However, we do not invite everyone at once as that can be confusing for both the hosts and the new members as we work out what type of organization works best. It is eassier for us to take a few at a time to introduce them to everyone and what systems we have in place instead of having a flood of new people that we cannot devote individual attention to.

We also provide forums which are specifically geared toward allowing people to learn and get better at their craft, not only for the people in the group but for some beginners maybe not in the group yet, who are interested in following along with what we are doing.

Nancy Fischer, 2 months ago

Well then you are all that i imagined you are! That’s fantastic and i could not have stated my own sentiment better. Who is to say that my work is less beautiful or moving than yours. Are we to critique every piece of art and make sure the rule of thirds and colors are correct. No, if i am moved by an image of an apple then i can love it artistically and nobody can tell me otherwise. Good for man! I’m proud of you.

Philip Johnson, 2 months ago

Well I have to agree with Lee , when I started with RB last November when I encountered these Invite only groups , my first impression was that these elitist sounding groups were working against the whole definition of a “Community” .

Yes they have every right to be in RB , but it is definitely a downer for anyone new , and it defeats the purpose of us working together for a common purpose , if essentially you create a group where the message is we are here but youre not really welcome.

So its really up to you .. if you get invited think first whether this is good or bad before you click ACCEPT

And lets face it Lees journal goes to prove that we do have a good community here where we can discuss such things in an open forum.

If we cant discuss these things in an open forum , were in the world would be ? ......China

Lee Martin in reply to Philip Johnson’s comment, 2 months ago

Philip, firstly thank you so very much for your imput.

Secondly, your final sentance could get me going on a whole other subject, i’ts a superb comment and one that will remain with me for a bloody long time.

Thanks again mate

Leslie Hagen, 2 months ago

You know, I am really glad to see the discussion about this particular subject. I have only been a RB member for a very short time, and was very surprised to see the invite only groups. While I know that I have an extreme amount to learn, I feel that everyones contributions wether good or not so good deserves a little showcasing.
And isn’t that what community is supposed to be about? I am glad that you opened this Pandoras box Lee.

HarrietRN, 2 months ago

I am rather new to Redbubble, but I guess I have totally misunderstood the whole “Group” thingy.

I thought the whole purpose of joining a group was to put your work in a slot that fits, such as landscape..goes into a landscape group, portraits in a portrait group, watercolor in a watercolor group, etc. I did not think of it as whether anyone was good enough to be in a group. Geez, who is to judge such a thing? We are all different individuals and like different things, if you are to be judged on your work then is that not what contests are for?

Who really cares if there is pencil or ink in a watercolor, if it has a watercolor medium. I would say the majority of artist could give a rats a$$. Isn’t the point is just to admire someones talents and works, not pick it apart? Nothing is absolutely perfect, or we would all be rich. And sometimes there is not a group for certain works.

I guess I have totally misunderstood the purpose of group joining, because I thought joining a group was simple to get your work out there to share with others.

Although recently I was in a group and everyone seemed very pleasant, until I recieved a mail saying it had new hosts and they would judge the work to see if it “fit” into the group, and I thought. What the….heck? I don’t have time in my busy schedule for someone to decide whether or not my work “was what they decided fit into their group. So I left that group immediately.

There are so many artist on Redbubble and if they do not join groups you may never have the opportunity to see their work, and that is very sad, we could be missing some wonderful works out there.

I am sure that being a host of a group is very time consuming, and a lot of work. But to simply judge others on what a few think is good enough, is rather unfair, and seems somewhat egotistical in my opinion. But this is MY opinion only.

I have been very pleased with the groups that I have joined, the hosts have taken the time to mail others, and keep them abreast of contests, and supportive.

But I have seen exactly what you are saying Lee, and it appears to me that those other groups that are for the elite are simply those who constantly need pats on the back, and they feel as tho their works far out surpass others, and I agree, they need to take a long hard look at themselves and their groups, they are not any better than the next person, it is all a matter of individual taste.

I am afraid that many of those “elite” groups are in for quite a dissapoint when the realization hits them one day that their works are not quite as sensational as they deem them to be.

Mel Spittall, 2 months ago

Wow Lee! You really opened up a can of worms here :)
I haven’t been on RB long enough to comment on the invite only groups, but i just wanted to reply to J.K.Yorks “deposite my images here and forget about it groups” comment. I feel he underestimates the relevence of these “normal” groups. I personally visit all of my groups quite offten to veiw other members works as that is how, as a beginer, i am learning (along with the helpful tips fellow bubblers have given me)....i figure out the images that resonate with me, get inspiration and feed my creativity.
I don’t know why but i found this comment quite offensive.
Thanks Lee xoxo

Michael Bermi..., 2 months ago

Ha.
Everyone do what I did..
Just add whatever letters you like to your name.

So we can all feel special!

Sue Buckingham, 2 months ago

Great subject for discussion Lee. I “applied” to join one of these elitist groups on your recommendation and have thought for a while that it wouldn’t be long before you realised the implications. Everything you say is spot on. While I am still currently a member of an invite only group, I have not looked at, entered any of my work or interacted with the group for some time. Why? Because they give the feeling that they are all better than me. Thankfully, I don’t let it bother me. I have had work rejected that has gone on to win places in competitions. I have put some of the hosts on my watchlist and been amazed at the mediocre quality of their own work and yet these people are allowed to choose what is permisable and what should be rejected from my own work! I have found them to be unhelpful when I have sought help and at times downright ignorant when my questions have gone unanswered.

Onto the community. On your recommendation Lee, I joined RB in Feb 08 and it has been one of the best things I have ever done. Thank you little brother xxx. In a short space of time I have been amazed by the amount of people who are willing to share their experience with you and as a result I have produced some of my best work ever! The generosity and encouragement has been overwhelming. I cant thank everyone enough! The groups I join have been chosen carefully and so far I have been very impressed with their enthusiasm and organisation.

RB is a place to share, learn and to be inspired. As for those who feel it is for them to “control”, I poke my tongue out at you! I am now going to remove myself from a certain group, thank you Lee for bringing this up, I suspect there may be a mass exodus from invite only groups very soon xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Bel10, 2 months ago

Hi Lee,
Just thought I’d add my 2 cents worth here.
As you know I’m still fairly new to RB and as yet have not struck any invites.
Perhaps my work is not considered good enough, funny thing is I don’t really care what the so called experts think of my work. I download images that I like and that I hope others may enjoy as well. I thought that was what RB was all about!
Keep up the great work Lee.
Lol Bel

Lee Martin in reply to Mel Spittall’s comment, 2 months ago

Hi Mel, I was almost at a point where I was just going to pull the plug on RB, but I jus cant as there are few people I have met on here that have not just overwhelmed me with there work, but have in various ways, touched my heart, and you are one of those few.

I thank you for your comments, the quality of your work speaks for itself and you has far surpassed the level of beginner.

Hope Brad is doing ok,

xx

Lee Martin in reply to Sue Buckingham’s comment, 2 months ago

By your work going on to be placed in comps just proves how much these so called hosts know about art and photography, I think its a power thing making up for something else.

As you are and have been for so long my biggest inspiration, it is me that should be thanking you xx

I have made many friends on RB and feel that its should be run for everyone and no one should be excluded from anything.

I hope the exodus has started, and long may it continue till these groups are no more.

Lee Martin in reply to Bel10’s comment, 2 months ago

Bel, I love the work you put onto RB, and not caring about what anyone says about your work is how everyone should be.

Who is to say what is good and what is not, all that matters is that YOU like it.

A very worthwhile 2 cents Bel, I thank you

jenndes, 2 months ago

Lee: Congrats – a fellow member of the very open to all “Stop and Smell the Roses Group” nominated your In Memory of a Fine Man – Ron Cottle photo to be featured so it’s currently up top on the group homepage :) Well deserved – it’s lovely!

Lee Martin, 2 months ago

Well i’m touched, really honoured.

You are a fine host, and I adore the group.

Thank you so so much

jenndes, 2 months ago

Jews, Gentiles, Protestants, Catholics, Islams, Muslims, Witches, Hindus and everyone else – as they say in kindergarten…let’s all just get along and share with each other :) I know, I know… easier said than done.

Stephen Mitchell, 2 months ago

If this helps, I look at ‘groups’ another way:
They are an easy way to sort our works into category’s: Landscapes, Portraits, Weddings, etc. So you can keep multi-tagging your art, but you use the groups to decide which tag is the most pertinent. Make sense?
But I have agreed with the elitism concept for quite some time. Thanks for crystallising my thoughts on that issue.

wiccanrider, about 1 month ago

Hi Lee, only being new to Redbubble and looking at things with an open mind. I totaly agree with you that having elitist groups can only cause segrigation. What could be termed as a bigoted stance on work ,or could it be frear that is driving them. Are they afraid that some one will post work that they feel is superior to what they have posted them self. Personaly I lookforward to my work being seen by all so that constructive criticism can be made so that I can learn somthing from my piers.

Lee Martin in reply to wiccanrider’s comment, about 1 month ago

Thanks for your support. Glad to see you have joined a group I co host, that has not limit on what you can upload, as long as it represents Aus, thats all that matters.

Thanks again

deliriousgirl, about 1 month ago

Actually the whole purpose of this group is to make more people aware of the fantastic art here on RB and as a by product of that, for artists to be able to SELL more art. The higher RB’s status on search engines, the more people who will be coming here to buy is the thinking behind this whole group. I’d be glad to sponsor you in the group if you’d like to join, Lee, or anybody else who wants to spend some hours every day on other sites and blogging promoting other people’s work. The purpose of the group is to raise sales and awareness internet wide of YOUR artwork. And who knows, I may have already placed links to your work on other sites, as I am a huge fan of your work.

The group was created solely for the sake of the artists here after RB received complaints about them NOT being able to SELL THEIR art.

Just shoot me a BM if you’d be interested!