James Lillis

samedog, 2 months ago

Not sure James – I’m wrestling with a similar predicament myself. I have a design that I want to release, but because it is a play on words involving a popular character I’ve been trawling the web trying to see if anyone else has already published the same idea. I haven’t found one like it yet, but how far do you take this stuff?

James Lillis in reply to samedog’s comment, 2 months ago

Yeah, it’s a toughie. Especially when you think – “somebody has probably though of this before…”! Can you put your pic up, or link to it so I can see it? If it’s ready, of course. :)

nofrillsart, 2 months ago

I think your right on a level James. We do have a collective unconscious thing where artists often arrive at the same idea…especially if your creative conclusion is somewhat obvious.(Which you can often only see after arriving at it unfortunately). I have personally been through this on here and the way i figure it is…if you turn up at a party wearing the same thing as someone else, that would kinda suck. You can laugh about it or go home and get changed…Its your choice ultimately. Personally, i figure i can always create another design…and if someone got to it first i give credit to them and take mine down. Uping the stakes a little, If you went to hang your work in a gallery and there was an almost identical artwork already hanging…what would you do?

Karin Taylor, 2 months ago

This is soo difficult….i couldn’t see all the detail in the other design, but from a distance the basics of the designs look very similar…i would feel torn as you are. I’d look at it this way, if Hicickry hadn’t told you about it, where would you be in your thoughts right now….Something that is your design straight outa your own head and inspiration, even if someone’s done it before…is still your own idea. You didn’t look at the other guy’s first and then think,yeah i’m gonna rip that off….... it’s obvious you are an honest type because you journalled it seeking public opinion….. it’s a difficult question to answer, isn’t it. It depends what set of rules you’d like to use to weigh it all up. In the past I’ve contacted people with a similar design to myself, or a similar idea…..to put my mind at ease, and show them i was honest about not wishing to tread on their territory, most people have been absolutely happy as larry for me to go ahead and display my own work…understanding that we are all trying to do our best and make a living. Others may not be so understanding, it’s a risk to reach out, but for my own peace of mind, this is how i’ve approached it in the past. not very helpful am i …...soz :)

James Lillis in reply to nofrillsart’s comment, 2 months ago

Okay – thanks for taking the time to reply. This is obviously something people are thinking about.

Okay – I like your party metaphor. Consider:

Two people turn up to the party wearing a dress (using female POV, this stuff matters more to them than us!) No prob.

Both wearing a red dress. Kind of no problem.

Both wearing Valentino red dress. Problem.

But how about two faux punks turn up to a party wearing the same ramones shirt or some faux socialists get to gether wearing the same che guevara t shirt , what happens then?

Yeah, truth be told, I’m not gonna go home and get changed. Me and Frankie just party together in our matching outfits. And if Frankie’s ugly, I’m even less inclined to get changed for him. If Frankie looks like Brad Pitt wearing the outfit, and I look like, well.. myself. I’m going to look like a chump next to him and I would be more inclined to make some mods.

In the art gallery example, the answer is simple, I’d deface the other work!

juutin, 2 months ago

leave it. you made your own original vader. same idea, big woop. you know how many shirts have pac-man chasing inky, blinky, ect, ect, millions. but they changed it by using their style, just like you did. keep it up. you think i’m the only person to make wabbits dressed up in diff. cloths. but i do it in my own style. so again keep it up, its your work…

Cathie Tranent, 2 months ago

I’d leave it.

It’s on a different site, you hadn’t seen the other one – so haven’t copied it ….

James Lillis in reply to Karin Taylor’s comment, 2 months ago

Yeah – I feel like it’s not his idea, it’s our idea (I just turned up to the party later!). Conceptually it’s exactly the same – working the “dark side” angle, but I just don’t feel like he’s managed to pull it off well. I know the detail is hard to see, but from my POV, there are mistakes – like writing darkside underneath DV’s head. The album deliberately had no text on the front, and spelling out the link for people is – I think – too explicit.

I think peace of mind is an issue though. I got up this morning and checked RB

1 sale :)
1 copyright issue :(

Thanks for dropping by…

James Lillis in reply to juutin’s comment, 2 months ago

Thanks juutin. Yeah, I agree. Although I did hear that the WFC (Wabbit Fashion Callective) has put out a mark on you. Watch your back, and don’t stand by any windows.

Scott Robinson, 2 months ago

Hmmm, While I do agree about the creative unconcious, other parts of this worry me..

No one creates in a vacuum, we`re all inspired by what`s around us etc etc, but when it comes down to using known images or icons for design purposes, Concept becomes the most important element. I agree that there are a zillion carp and geisha artworks out there, but these are graphics, and mostly free of conceptual meaning, and each artists interpretation of them brings something different to the work. This is where individual artisitic style becomes the key factor in identifying the works as your own.

And in this case, the concept has been covered before, and the end results are close. How much time you spend on it, or your opinions on the pre-existing work are irrelevant, harsh as that seems, someone beat you to it. I understand that it`s not intentional. but now that it`s been brought to your attention, It`s up to you to choose how to respond.

See, while I understand the party metaphor, this isn`t a party, it`s a marketplace, and someone before you worked long and hard to create something original, so to continue with the marketplace line of thinking, that makes yours the “non genuine” product. And I don`t feel any artist should be happy to let themselves been seen like that… for their own peace of mind.

Just my thoughts.. I dig the design, and looked into purchasing the chunk one a while back..

juutin, 2 months ago

wtf??? what?

Scott Robinson, 2 months ago

Ok Juutin:

If you`re going to use a pop-culture icons like darth vader, and a pink floyd album cover, you have to have a good concept behind it to make it your own.

If you`re drawing something on a known theme.. Bring something to the artwork by way of your own style.

As unintentional as this was, the fact is someone beat James across the line with this one, and i don`t think James should settle for that.

That work for you???

samedog, 2 months ago

Can relate to that from personal experience Scott. I had a concept that I’d toyed with a few months back and finally got around to finishing it. For whatever reason I decided to search related tags on bubble first and discovered someone had beaten me to the punch.

Of course, I reckon my design was a better execution (I was damn proud of it to be honest), but I couldn’t upload it after seeing the other image.

I came away from that experience with two points:

1) Even though it was entirely coincidental, I didn’t want to run the risk of misconceptions getting out that I plagiarise works.

2) If I’m striving for original ideas and some other random punter has already put the idea up, then perhaps I should head back to the drawing board and put a bit more effort into my ideas instead of talking an easier path.

James Lillis in reply to Scott Robinson’s comment, 2 months ago

Scott – thanks for dropping by. You articulate my concerns really well – I’ve felt all these things. However, some food for thought:

In marketplaces, being the first to do something is irrelevant – marketability is all that matters. No one chooses Pepsi over Coke because one is the “original” cola and thus more genuine. Or, take the “concept” of sponsoring a sporting team to associate your product with thier values and thus increase sales. Been done before? Yeah, that’s how markets work.

Marketplaces are places of brutal competition where the only thing that matters is making more sales than the other guy. Everyone copies everyone and every idea is fully exploited from every possible angle for maximum monetry gain. Peace of mind comes from cash flow – not artistic integrity.

So… I don’t think the marketplace line of thinking advances your case.

That being said – I totally sympathise with your points.. which is why I’m opening up this idea to the community here.

But maybe think about musical “concepts”: scratching records, rapping, 12 bar blues progressions, metal/hip hop cross over, putting five talentless bimbos together…

...which is a really long, drawn out way of saying – why can’t we riff on concepts (even accidentally) and still be genuine?

p.s. juutin was responding to my comment – not yours :)

Scott Robinson, 2 months ago

Hey that`s fine James, I`ve thought about this before is all..

While the marketplace analogy may not have helped my case, I`m not presenting one ( no-ones on trial here!), just sharing thoughts and opinions..

“Peace of mind comes from cash flow – not artistic integrity”.. do you honestly believe that? Just curious…

James Lillis in reply to Scott Robinson’s comment, 2 months ago

Hi Scott. Yeah, I have no doubt most of you guys have spent many hours on this issue.

“Peace of mind comes from cash flow – not artistic integrity”.. do you honestly believe that? Just curious…

Of course not! Because I see this as a party, not a market :) (although I did make $6 this morning – yeeeehaaa!)

MuscularTeeth, 2 months ago

do it your version.
and sing loudly – i did it myyyyy waaaaay!

Tom Godfrey, 2 months ago

I agree with Scott and the idea that artistic integrity should apply first. I was put in a predicament a while back when a bubbler commented on my “Save the Whale” T. She said how interesting it was and how similar in concept to one already done by Hagen on this site. I hadn’t seen his and when I popped over to take a look, I was mortified. Talk about the collective unconscious- it was too close for comfort, so I immediately withdrew my design. I was breaten to the punch and accepted that. I love to create original and imaginative works and I would not have been happy living with the idea that my respected fellow bubblers might have thought I was “borrowing” :) another artist’s idea.

melonruby, 2 months ago

everyone draws skulls and hearts etc…. and that’s not considered copying…
I say leave it!

James Lillis, 2 months ago

Wow – look what I just found in my blog reader !!!!! . WHat are the chances?

James Lillis in reply to Tom Godfrey’s comment, 2 months ago

Hi Tom. Thanks so much for dropping by.

I am all for artistic integrity – I just don’t know exactly where the line between integrity and oversensitivity is!!!

Let me lay it on the line – I THINK THE CHUNK DESIGN SUCKS.

I did an AT-AT design that was really similar to one Scott did a while back. I had no problem with mine getting taken down because Scott’s artwork was FAR better than mine. It really was, no question.

I want to get this design on a t shirt, I wouldn’t buy the Chunk version, I would buy my RB one.

So… I feel a sort of obligation to the art itself, not solely to the social conventions fo the artistic community. I guess I don’t feel that this other designer has really done the concept justice…

That being said, if the alternate design was on RB – I would take it down… Go figure… :) (I guess I feel more sensitive to the opinions of RBers than the global artistic community.)

nofrillsart, 2 months ago

James for the record i think your version is actually better than the chunk one too.

I guess it comes down to if you feel its original now?

...Now you have seen that someone else came up with the concept before you, it become a personal ethical judgement over being a black and white right or wrong issue.

With your music metaphor earlier i dont think it stands up…when people accidentally steal a melody from another song…not as in a sample where you pay royalties, they generally get sued by the original songwriter just for the similarity. Thats the way it is.

I did a design that was actually quiet personal a while back yet common at the same time. I got accused of ripping off another design. When i googled a few key words…i found heaps of them(which means what…im not sure? right…wrong? i just felt unoriginal!)...one design if i didnt know better i would think was my one it was so close, although it was a belt buckle! (glad no one pointed it out six months down the track i might have accused them off ripping me off!)

I guess maybe another way to look at it is how would you feel if tommorrow someone uploaded a design similar to yours or any other in your folio…but said they had not seen your work before. Would you want them to take it down? or not?!

At the end of the day being original is the key to creativity. The rest of the mob just popularises styles or subject matter. As for two faux socialists getting together wearing the same che guevara t shirt , what happens then? I laugh and think to myself they are not very original. Again there is no witch hunt here, no right or wrong…its all grey area.
I guess it probably raises the issue of interlectual property too! Ah, so many unknowns here, questions with no definitive answers.
liking the discussion though!
G

nofrillsart, 2 months ago

ps- when i said ‘steal a melody’...i mean arrive at the same point(melody) by accident. I was kinda thinking about how it is percieved that its has been stolen by being the same.

sorry, honestly dont wish to imply anything there…farkin words!

James Lillis in reply to nofrillsart’s comment, 2 months ago

Hi nofrillsart – thanks for stopping by…

Interesting thoughts. I agree – it’s not a black and white issue. Originality is a funny word – I’m sure one caveman looked at another cavemen’s wall art and said “Mammoth? That’s been done before!!!” Or for that matter “Painting a wall? That’s been done!, do something original!”

The more I think about the music example – the more accurate & applicable I think it is! I grew up playing the fiddle and the blues harp. Now, in these genres everyone uses everyone else’s ideas (intentionally!) but spins it their own way. Imagine one blues player suing another blues player (“Hey, that 12 bar progression is mine!”)

In some ways, we’re doing the same concept, spinning it in different ways.

I have had someone take one of my designs (and put it on the Bub, no less!) and I did have an attitude. But… they botched it so badly that I really didn’t worry about it. Part of me feels like – if you came up with the idea independently, and you’ve got the skills to pull it off, more power to ya!

As for the faux socialists, my friends at the MRAQ (Marxist Resistance Alliance of Queensland) would be very offended by your comments, you borgoise, enemy of the working class! Wear that Che t-shirt with pride!

Okay, I admit it – I don’t know how to spell borgoise.

nofrillsart, 2 months ago

“my friends at the MRAQ (Marxist Resistance Alliance of Queensland) would be very offended by your comments, you borgoise, enemy of the working class!”

Offended?! Each person is entitled to their own opinion…if i cant have my own opinions then your friends are closer aligned to nazis! My point being…and the irony here is…if i wanted to support the cause…yet be an individual i would make my own Che tee
...like i have! So as for enemy of the working class or bourgeois…get it right dude your more likely to offended me first with your accusations.

hikickry, 2 months ago

god, what have i stirred up here.

James, everyone here has made valid points, no matter what is said though, i think the main thing people want to communicate is that this decision is up to you. You don’t rate the chunk version, but you accept it was there before yours. I’m not going to enter any ‘concept’ discussions, it’s just up to you.

Just ask yourself, are completely satisified with your design and therefore happy to keep it up. If you see it as your work of art, of course, you would be gutted to take it down.
On the other hand, do you think there will always be this niggling thought, that people may think you are unoriginal after seeing this work. If so, then i’m sure you wouldnt want to push that image. Like i said, it’s completely up to you, we know you didn’t steal the design, someone else maybe wouldnt.

I am glad for bringing this up, as it obviously affects most of us. I do apologise, however, for putting you in this predicament lol.

hikickry, 2 months ago

So someone reported it? surely they could have just spoken to you about it, like i did. Good on u for selling one, they have truley bought a ‘one-off’, well, in one sense of the word lol.
I would hate to be in the situation you found yourself in. The design i recently put up, doughboarder, is one of those concepts that you worry has already been done, it’s probably one of my faves, i would hate to take it down or in deed be reported for it.

In the field we are in though, we are always going to encounter these problems, you just have to hope you come up with a good idea first :)

To make yourself feel better, just make your next design your best :)

Later

James Lillis in reply to hikickry’s comment, 2 months ago

No need to apologise, you certainly did the right thing.

In some ways the problem has been solved – someone reported the image and I was informed it would be taken down.

I think my real problem was that I was very attached to this design – it was my absolute favourite one. Sold one this morning as well… :)

Leaves a little bad taste in the mouth, though, I must say. I hate that kind of “What will people think…?” trap you can fall into.

Thanks for dropping by :)

LostBoy, 18 days ago

there is another at-at tee in the gallery…i take it yours was removed?

James Lillis in reply to LostBoy’s comment, 18 days ago

Yeah – mine got taken down.

Where is the one you are talking about?

MuscularTeeth, 18 days ago

it got taken down? for being too similar?

LostBoy, 18 days ago

rip

James Lillis in reply to MuscularTeeth’s comment, 18 days ago

Not exactly sure to be honest. Scott Robinson did one that got taken down for (I suppose) ripping off the Star Wars franchise, and I guess mine was in the same category.

MuscularTeeth, 18 days ago

aaah i see. ive just seen something of a similar vein – this
ive asked if they know how simlar it is to invader zim… they should probably take it down right? or it will get taken down for them?

James Lillis in reply to MuscularTeeth’s comment, 18 days ago

Hi MT

That link doesn’t seem to work (maybe they saw it and took it down in shame?)

I think usual protocol is the RB gestapo spot it and contact them personally, or they get reported by another member and then contacted by the gestapo.

It’s a familiar process. I’m still sore from the telephone books.

MuscularTeeth, 18 days ago

tis a right shame comrade.
however your a smart cookie with more than one brilliant idea up your sleeve im sure.
im a tooth and thus dont have sleeves, and really am screwed.