Brilliant message ,

Here is a list* of the countries bombed by the United States since the end of the Second World War:
Afghanistan 1998, 2001-present
Bosnia 1994, 1995
Cambodia 1969-70
China 1945-46, 1950-53
Congo 1964
Cuba 1959-1961
El Salvador 1980s
Korea 1950-53
Guatemala 1954, 1960, 1967-69 Indonesia 1958
Laos 1964-73
Grenada 1983
Iraq 1991-present
Iran 1987
Kuwait 1991
Lebanon 1983, 1984
Libya 1986
Nicaragua 1980s Pakistan 2003, 2006
Panama 1989
Peru 1965
Somalia 1993, 2008
Sudan 1998
Vietnam 1961-73
Yemen 2002
Yugoslavia 1999

A very powerful and truthful image, Helen.

*these countries represent roughly one-third of the people on earth.

Helen, I think this is a very cool image and quite an interesting statement. I would like you to put this in the forums for further discussion as I don’t want to use her to make ant further statements.

Edit:her=here

Edit: ant=any

I am so sorry. Why are you apologising? You are one of the greatest champions for justice in your country that I know.

Levi, why bother with the forums. Anything they don’t like gets locked permanently, as my forum just did.

Superb, Helen! Great job! :) Tony.

While they may say they kill for your freedoms, I suspect they kill more for Halliburton et als balance sheets.

vary interesting work helen, great statement

wow this is a killer image Helen….. literally as well as metaphorically….... fantastic to be able to speak the truth….. well done and yes this is the barely discernable subtext that makes the US such a scary place these days…... that hidden violence behind the retoric of ‘freedom’....... great work you…...

Public Forum

Levi, why bother with the forums. Anything they don’t like gets locked permanently, as my forum just did.

Shayne, I’d love to address that, please reffer to the public forum as I won’t enter into it here out of respect.

Helen,

Don’t know if you’re familiar with the music of Billy Bragg. He has a song called The Marching Song of the Covert Battalions

Very closely related to what you raise in this image.

BTW Strong image, nice job for a rare foray into digital compositing….

Fantastic work Helen and very thought provoking.

Thanks Irene I had not heard of that song. I love it.

Helen…Great message…let us pray that John McCain does not get into office…we know Iran
will be next and there will be a draft…since most of our volunteer army is in Iraq, dead, maimed
or mentally distressed….What a sad commentary on this administration….

Hugs, Sally xxxxxxxxxooooooo

I am a veteran and I am not dead or maimed. I am mentally distressd that so many of you hate America. That makes me really sad.

powerful

Powerful image and statement Helen.

One mans’ liberty is another mans’ death.

The statue of Liberty has always reminded me of Revelations 12, and 17. I don’t mean to offend by that, but It has always struck me as a profound discription.

Peace, Love, Tolerance

We would never have gone to war with Japan if they had not bombed Pearl Harbor. People are now prosecuted for hate crimes. I know some terrible things happened in the past but we cannnot change them. We have a black man who will probably be elected president. You have to admit we have made a lot of progress. We still have to make some improvements. There is NO justification for hatred by anyone.

I don’t hate you. I don’t hate anyone. I love you.

brilliant statement…... i find the elusive figures in the mist quite haunting…..like all that is kept hidden from us by those with agendas…....

I am sick of politics, in general. I don’t think anyone in any party cares for the poor and the downtrodden. My grandson has been critically ill and he was denied Medicaid because Timmy makes $35,000 a year. I know all about injustuce. I was born dirt poor and made fun of because of it. I am still scarred. But, complaining doesn’t help. I am now in a position to help other people. I give to Habitat for Humanity and other causes to help the poor. Terrorists on 9/11 didn’t kill our government, they killed our people. That’s were I have a problem.

Hey, and let’s not forget the first to die so that Liberty could live:

They were there first!

And their destruction continues silently through economics.

All I can say it’s just a shame that it wasn’ t the immune system of the Europeans that succumbed to local diseases.

My god does someone STILL believe that Nagasaki and Hiroshima were justified???

Hmm, didn’t Hitler say that the Jews were a legitimate targets because they were “Christ killers”? So, I it was them that started the Holocaust after all, using the Pearl Harbor Logic.

So, the men women and children of Nagasaki and Hiroshima who were overwhelmingly non-comabatants were responsible for Pearl Harbor.

When they dropped the bombs, Japan was negotiating surrender:

Potsdam

So, just how did that “save” lives???

And anyone who thinks they know it all should read:

This

My personal view is that they killed all those CIVILLIANS (you know, like you your kids, the people in your street, your parents, nephews & nieces, old folks, the handicapped… ) becase they saw they knew the Bomb alone would made them heavyhitters in the global area, but USING the bomb would make them a superpower… that and riding on the back that Europe had been pounded into the dirt… so, it ran with the greed.

We in the UK just finished paying out WW2 loans back… hey, what are “friends” for.. if not to stand back and watch you take a thorough kicking before you step in… and then bomb you by accident…

Not that I am ungrateful for the ordinary American people who died in WW2 (I’m a descendent of one!) but highly critical of teh government of the day… and the competency of the USAF commanders regarding the North of France…

Oh and the thing that makes me laugh the most about NeoCons and their “Freedom Fries”

Cheese-eating surrender Monkeys

As Homer would say “D-oh!”

Surrender Monkeys?

Double D’oh! with fries…

Ah you just gotta love a “Patriot!”

:-)

Good night, Helen. Best of everything to you.

Bloody hell Lori. That makes me so ANGRY about your grandson!

Here in the UK things are bad, but not THAT bad?

I wish I could do something to help??? Kids do not deserve that… adults don’t either but kids should have a right to a level playing field.

:-(

Thank you, Clinton. I appreciate that.

powerful

amazing and powerful image, wow

Thought provoking, powerful and terrific digital artwork Helen!!! Im not getting involved in this one :) x

Helen… you may have created this with the best of intentions, however from what I have read in the threads the people that do hate america are using it to spread hate and create discord. This image does not and will not institute any change or help any of the “downtrodden”, as a matter of fact I can see that it has divided the rb community and caused a lot of hurt and resentment along the way. Your icon is anti-hate and yet this work does nothing but create it. Im a bit confused about why you think something like this is going to “help ” anyone.

Powerful IMAGE. Beyond my MERE Comment.

Good work…I’m working on one about the lack of war-crimes indictments.

HELEN!...This is absolutely STRIKING, HONEST,Thought-provoking, and DEFINATELY NEEDED….
The fact that so many peolpe could interperet this work as hateful, just goes to show the confusion that exists between ALL of us, as to the TRUE meaning of “Liberty” “Justice”...I also am a veteran, and I KNOW, that WE DONT KNOW ALL-the true reasons they go to war over & over again, usually until after TOO MANY people have died, and TOO MANY THIEVES have gotten away with HORRIBLE CRIMES…Bringing the mistakes of the past…Into the light…reminds us of our worst potential…living in denial of that potential is Ignorance…I choose Truth…I cant teach my son to be honest, & then turn right around and deny whats happening…CLASS WAR!!!
The Wealthy & Power-Mongers have always controlled us ALL thru FEAR,...of each other
of each other’s cultures…
religions…
politics…
race…
sex…
sexual preferance…
As long as we keep tearing each other apart…
We can never UNITE!!!CLASS WAR!!!!
Any expression of honest, true concern like this…
DEFINITELY HELPS!!!As far as dividing the RB community….
...just look at how many people have come together to discuss this….
AWESOME PIECE!!!YOU ARE WONDERFUL!!!
noyou
yesme

The whole thing that ticks me off about all this is NOT the image itself…. its the fact that someone took this image and used it to create friction and expound his hateful views of America. That thread in the community forum was NOT a discussion…. it was a bashing against americans plain and simple. I can think of 3 people right off the top of my head that were adding fuel to the fire, not “discussing ”. If you think that it didnt divide rb, your wrong….

He didnt have to say anything… he knew what it was going to provoke. I read the whole thread and was quite taken aback at the way things turned south. the very first post was this:
Here is a list* of the countries bombed by the United States since the end of the Second World War

This was the first sentence of the second post:
Holy you do want to start something…..

Third post by the man in question:
In the interest of my security/safety, I will accept that their will be casualties. I am ok with that.

Fourth post:
This is not going to be pretty.

they all knew what was happening and all stood back to watch the fireworks.

I can appreciate that you want to bring attention to injustices, dont we all. People didnt jump off the cliff because of the statue of liberty, they jumped off because of the hateful and ugly comments that people were making. I didnt jump to any conclusions… I know what I read and what I saw. I dont wish to become enemies with you over this… only that we can both see each others points of view. Im trying to understand where you were coming from with this, but no matter how the cookie crumbles, the only way to move forward is to stop living in the past. There are so many issues that are happening today, right now that need attention… global warming, environmental issues, economic conditions and on and on. If we dont all wise up and look to our futures … we wont have one!

Crap! All but one worked. Here is the link for the story about the dragging death in Texas:

CLICK HERE

its the fact that someone took this image and used it to create friction and expound his hateful views of America.

He didnt have to say anything… he knew what it was going to provoke.

First, I didn’t take the image, I asked to use it for a discussion not friction. Once posted that thread took on a life of its own and went down hill by no action of my own.

Second, I had no foreknowledge that it would incite such hostility and saying that I did is completely incorrect.

So, Danielle, you find yourself at a crossroads: Do you listen to and believe the truths Helen and I have told you or do you continue on in hate and ignorance? The choice is yours, choose well.

Also, I want to see where I said anything about hating America. Please, I want to see from what orifice to produce that oh-so-obvious information.

very good

you obviously have all those freedoms already, otherwise you wouldnt be able to spue your hatred all over the internet, no? you preach anti-hate…. not so. Those articles you cited…. the US was just one part of many many countries that took part and took lives. I would say that most americans dont like what our goverment does, but the next country that asks for our help and we say no… we will still be the bad guy. You are not helping anything. Your image villifys a people and a country and should be removed from this site. I would think there are other sites that would welcome your personal war against the reactionary fear mongering corporations.

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“tis you who are ignorant.

This has been soooo entertaining and enlightening.. lol NOT There is something really wrong with you Helen…. so spread the hate and get on with your bad self gurl. LOL

;-)

Ha Ha Ha. Some people . . . . I have to go now. I’ve got some American Flags to burn. And guess what? The United States Supreme Court says I have the right to burn the Flag as symbolic speech. :-P

Helen,

Helen, while I do agree with many of your points, your brush is way too broad. Wars can be fought for good causes too. There are many vicious people in the world who murder and torture millions of innocents and force is the only way to get rid of them. Yes USA has done many bad things, but not everything it does is bad. Saying that bombing Bosnia and Afganistan were crimes against humanity is ignoring obvious facts about the causes and the good results of these wars.(no oil company benefited from removing Milosevic or Taliban from power). True, wars are ugly and we have to avoid them as much as possible, but at some point they are necessary. Do you think Afganistan was better off under Taliban? By the way, Obama wants to send more troops to Afganistan – is he a criminal too?

Helen, I love America…I Know You Love America…we are just so very disappointed…we want
change….there are too many problems with this Administration…You and I back our military…
we love them and respect them….we love all races of people…we love the poor….our hearts
hurt for the homeless…We just pray for change….We are not here to startle or upset just to
inform…I know you LOVE AMERICA…and as many problems we are experiencing is going on
in so many other countries…Let’s just pray Obama comes in and is able to help straighten
out the mess created by the last administration…Hugs, Sally xxxxxoxoooooo

the only way to move forward is to stop living in the past is a syllogism. A more sagacious thought would be that unless we learn from history, we are condemned to repeat it. You have an election comimng up, Danielle, and a chance to vote for a withdrawal from Iraq; or a continuation of the wear crimes we have discussed and which you are in denial of. Do you not think you might become a little informed before casting your vote (assuming you bother to vote.)?

I really wish we lived in this Erewhon world of yours where black lynchings never happened and blacks and women were not persecuted still. And the war crimes of the Coalition of the Witless were just a bad dream. But hey, that big mouse at Disneyland ain’t real either.

Regarding this image, if, as stated above, you “alone know what it means” & you have not clearly outlined that meaning in the description, then how do you know that those who love it even understand it; and that those who question it’s meaning don’t understand it at all? This of course is barring the fact that art is open to interpretation—one of it’s great strengths.
Oh Liberty, have you always been such a liar?
I am just curious how this sentiment is “pro-Country”?
BTW, I do not hate you, nor do I hate your image (I’m a fan of your work or wouldn’t comment on so much of it); I am just curious why an image which I believe any reasonable person would anticipate as being potentially controversial wouldn’t appreciate the different perspectives of the work – whether you agree or not. And it seems that you greatly appreciate those who love it and disregard as irrational idiots those that don’t.
Finally, your message in it’s simplest form as stated above doesn’t expound any of the good done by this Country but focuses solely on the negatives. Isn’t that telling? And, why is your interpretation of this Country truth while others interpretation ignorant?

I think this imagery is an eye-opener.

As proud as I am to say that I’m an American, I’m in agreement that our government is so flawed in so many ways. I feel that, like a lot of Americans, we don’t see the whole world anymore and we allow our government to dictate what we see and how we should react. It’s sad that nearly all wars are economic in nature, camoflauged with the color of humanitarianism, but it’s true. I’m quite sure that other countries have a bit better handle on how government should govern, but I for one like the ideals that America was founded on and hope that we can find a better path than where we are headed now…

Indeed, we need to get away from influencing other governments to become democracies and understand that we are not wanted in the middle east. If there were no oil there… we wouldn’t be there either.

Maybe in learning to understand others we can begin to understand and change our government.

I agree, Daniel, there seems to be little tolerence for anyone’s opinion other than through the eyes of the artist. Sad that the freedom Helen says she loves is the one thing she doesn’t wish to share…

Helen, you avoid anwering my point that some wars are necessary and done for a good cause. Do you still think that bombing Bosnia and Afganistan were crimes against humanity?

Is is true that CIA supported the Taliban against the Soviet invasion of Afganistan in the 80’s (Al Qaeda did not exist then). This in itself was a good cause at that time when it was not known what the Taliban regime was going to be.

We hated the Soviets so much, we would have given aid to Satan himself he opposed the former USSR Yes, what’s wrong with this?

Now we are stuck with trying to clean up the mess we helped to create. Right, isn’t this the right thing to do?

I asked about Obama, because I suspect that you will vote for him (I will too). So how can you vote for somebody who wants to send more troops to fight a war started by Bush? I cannot stand Bush and most of his policies, but maybe he did something good here.

Damn you put me through an exercise there Miron. Good thing I have a degree in history!

Helen, you still avoid answering straight questions. So I repeat them.

Do you still think that bombing Bosnia and Afganistan were crimes against humanity? (this is not a question about Hitler).

Was Bush right to start the war in Afganistan?
Was Clinton right to bomb Serbia?

And a related question: would US be right in starting a military action against the Sudan government?

Thanks, Dave.

The only people who have interpreted this image as anti—American are the good folks here on RedBubble.
I can not speak as to whether that is a “fact” or not and as a point, here, is immaterial.

You did attack Lori – So stop hating me – Nothing she said had anything to do w/ hating you.

Although you have not attacked me, and I appreciate that, you also neglected to answer many of the direct questions I posed. And I would add:

How exactly does this image “fix” what’s wrong with the Country?
What cause does this image clearly express?
So you receive joy only when people email you kissing butt, not from the creation itself?
And, you admit to disregarding people as irrational idiots for not siding with you – b/c when they disagree it’s a belligerent rant?

Um, Helen just to clear a point up. The CIA did actually fund and give arms to the afgans during the invasion from the former USSR.

We were blinded by our irrational fear of the Communists

This is a suprising statement from a person who knows history. Irrational fear? The publicly stated goal of Communism was to install a “dictatorship of the workers (proletariat)” everywhere in the world, so they wanted to take over the Western society and impose their style of regime. Some of the worst crimes against humanity were done by the Soviet regime – about 18 million people perished in Gulags. (Hitler’s numbers were smaller, but his pirotechnics were more efficient.)

How “irrational” was that fear?

I strongly disliked this artwork of Helen, but I strongly defend her right to display it here. Art and politics cannot be separated, and art has always been a means of expressing political views. Yes, some people will be offended, but this is unavoidable.

I did not see Lori’s JE, so I can not comment on that.

Also, you clearly stated above that you were the only one who knew what this image represented, yet you now state when the work is misinterpreted and attacked, I feel attacked can you really claim that this work is misinterpreted if you don’t offer your vision in the description?

And the statement – Oh Liberty, have you always been such a liar?
I am still curious how this sentiment is “pro-Country”?

Finally, just to be clear, you are now claiming that the “fix” this image offers the Country is on par with: Rosa Parks sitting down in the front of the bus, the speeches of Malcolm X, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., Susan B. Anthony, Virginia Minor, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and Paulina Kellogg?

If the US is the scene of many crimes against human beings… has not accepted responsibility for past conduct toward it’s own citizens or the citizens of the world at large and continued a disregard for the ideals of Liberty how can you not feel hateful toward the Country? And if you feel that kind of hatred, can you really claim to love it so much? And, if it is that bad – and has been since it’s inception ie. lynching (your reference) which goes as far back as before before we were a country – and it has always been that bad, what exactly is the fix? We were & are a failed nation – how can you reference a time in the past which we should long to go back to – when did we ever have Liberty?

We are not discussing global strategy or world politics – this is a simple discussion about the interpretation of an image.
And I have yet to get a clear answer on how that particular image is a “pro-Country”!

Liberty is a liar.
I think that says it all.

If you do not put yourself on the level with the great patriots and activists then do not use them to defend your images!

If you feel, regarding Liberty & Freedom, for me those words are supposed to define this Country and its people. We have not lived up to that definition when in your eyes have we?

Your husband being black has nothing to do with that image. If it does how? What is the personal reference to your husband?

For every negative story you wish to link to there are hundreds, nay thousands, of stories of heroism, courage & decency that take place in this Country and because of this Country every day.

Do you still think that bombing Bosnia and Afganistan were crimes against humanity?

Any time civilian populations are the targets, yes.

Were civilian populations targets of American bombs?

Was Bush right to start the war in Afganistan?

No he was wrong. The Taliban did not bomb the World Trade Center, and bin Laden isn’t there.

History disagrees with you – bin Laden was in Afganistan at that time; he had been protected by Taliban. Al Qaeda flourished under Taliban and the planning of 9/11 did occur there. The war in Afganistan (unlike Iraq) was supported by most countries and the UN. Most US politicians (including Obama) have supported this war.

From a pure humanitarian viewpoint, destroying the Taliban regime was a great progress. The number of people killed in Afganistan today is much smaller than the number of people killed by Taliban per year. And the status of the women is incomparably better.

So why was Bush wrong to start this war?

Was Clinton right to bomb Serbia?

Rugova pleaded for a United Nations peacekeeping force for Kosovo. In 1997, No help came. The United States and NATO did not acted neither decisively nor promptly. That conflict could have been avoided if the administration prior to Clinton had acted with conviction.

Yes, maybe the war could have been avoided. But US and the NATO entered the conflict when the massacres of Bosnians (they are not in Kosovo) reached too large numbers. At that time there was no other solution to stop the killing. (If you advocate negociations with the criminals, look how successful they are in Darfur.)

So why was Clinton wrong to bomb Serbia?

My husband has suffered the racism in this Country as have I because of my association
Where, specifically, is the reference to that in your image?

Are we to turn a blind eye to any injustice as being balanced by the good things we can point to?
Absolutely not, however you point to nothing positive only the negative – is there any balance for you?

Why are you shouting at me?
Give me a break – I’m not shouting at you.
However,I would like a clear answer to a direct question. Don’t use examples ie: Rosa Parks, if you are not going to defend using that reference as a comparison.

Neither I, nor anyone else I have seen in this thread, have demanded or even asked for you to hold back an opinion.
I simply asked for an explanation of how “that” image is patriotic. An answer I still haven’t received.
How is that image one of a patriot and a citizen who is proud of & loves their country?

And a related question: would US be right in starting a military action against the Sudan government?

That conflict began I think back in 2003 (maybe 2002). We delayed our entry into WWII and 6 million Jews and about 5 million others were murdered by the Nazis. The slaughter in Dafur must be stopped, but bombing the hell out of villages of women, children and old men isn’t gong to help.

The Sudanese government and its Janjaeweed bands are burning the hell out of villages of women, children and old men (and don’t forget the mass rapes and torture). My question that you avoided was about military action against the Sudanese government. Would you support such a war?

Helen, you are very selective regarding the parts of my argument that you do not want to answer. So here they are again:

Do you still think that bombing Bosnia and Afganistan were crimes against humanity?

Any time civilian populations are the targets, yes.

Were civilian populations targets of American bombs?

True patriots are not afraid to be called anti—American.
Fine, what exactly is patriotic about that image?

Here is another example of no answers:

Was Bush right to start the war in Afganistan?

No he was wrong. The Taliban did not bomb the World Trade Center, and bin Laden isn’t there.

History disagrees with you – bin Laden was in Afganistan at that time; he had been protected by Taliban. Al Qaeda flourished under Taliban and the planning of 9/11 did occur there. The war in Afganistan (unlike Iraq) was supported by most countries and the UN. Most US politicians (including Obama) have supported this war.

From a pure humanitarian viewpoint, destroying the Taliban regime was a great progress. The number of people killed in Afganistan today is much smaller than the number of people killed by Taliban per year. And the status of the women is incomparably better.

So why was Bush wrong to start this war?_

For the same reason he was wrong to invade Iraq. This administration lies to the American people and does it with a smirk and a wink. Oh and by the way, not one of the alleged 9/11 hijackers were members of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, or from Iraq. The majority were Saudi

You did not answer my arguments about bin Laden, Taliban, support for the war, and humanitarian benefits as the result of the war.

Your claim that the hijackers were not Al Qaeda borders on ridiculous.

Did you know, Miron, that the Taliban all left Afghanistan before the US bombing started? The only targets were civilians…and their sheep. Show me your reference that bin Laden was there, too, if you have one. Your ‘facts’ all seem to be gleaned from US media, which was so quick to acquiesce to the Bush admin’s propaganda. But tell it to the Afghani mother scraping her children off the wall. (Next we can talk about the rich oil deposits in the Caspian basin.)

Well, Shayne, where exactly is your source? Were you there? What media are you taking your “talking points” from?

LOL Daniel, no one knows where bin Laden is or ever has been. It’s not rocket science. You really need to start reading some media outside the US because – NEWSFLASH! – your government is a liar.

Helen, no offense, you seem to be missing the point of my question.
I know what a patriot is and can define it. I have simply asked how is that image of Lady Liberty patriotic?

How does it show love, support and defense of your country?

Again, Shane, where exactly is your source? Were you there? What media are you taking your “talking points” from?

I have simply asked how is that image of Lady Liberty patriotic?

2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, esp. of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

Part of defending is decrying the wrongs committed by our government. By calling upon everyone to demand true Liberty and not the lies proposed as justification for the very conduct our government condemns as immoral when committed by other countries, I believe I am defending the foundations of truth, liberty and freedom upon which this country was founded.

“He that wishes to see his country robbed of its rights cannot be a patriot.”

Samuel Johnson
Address to the Electors of Great Britain, 1774

The image is patriotic and shows love and support for this country because, despite the ugliness, the violence, and the death, I have presented Lady Liberty without defacing her. This evidences my belief that there is hope for positive change.

As I posted earlier regarding the interpretation of the image:

The Smoldering Torch:

The shining light of freedom and liberty that the light in that torch represented is nothing more than a smoldering ember now. We live in a country filled with fear. This fear is inflated and exaggerated by the present Administration because a fearful society is a society willing to follow anyone who promises them protection.

The Statue:

If you will notice, I have not defaced the Statue of Liberty herself. I did not break her, or cover her in blood, or draw a stupid mustache on her. She remains standing, although her flame is not burning, there is still a spark of hope.

So you see, I have love and respect for my country and for the symbolism of the Statue of Liberty. I have no love and no respect for those individuals and groups of individuals (corporations, banks, oil barons for example) who have tarnished this Country and harmed its people with their greed and imperialist ambitions.

OK, Daniel, let’s see…

“And the status of the women is incomparably better.”
from: Rawa of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan,

“We, the women of Afghanistan, only became a cause in the west following 11 September 2001, when the Taliban suddenly became the official enemy of America. Yes, they persecuted women, but they were not unique, and we have resented the silence in the west over the atrocious nature of the western-backed warlords, who are no different. They rape and kidnap and terrorise, yet they hold seats in [Hamid] Karzai’s government. In some ways, we were more secure under the Taliban. You could cross Afghanistan by road and feel secure. Now, you take your life into your hands. By experience, [we have found] that the US does not want to defeat the Taliban and al-Qaeda, because then they will have no excuse to stay in Afghanistan and work towards the realisation of their economic, political and strategic interests in the region.”

“The Taliban and the oil.”

from The New Statesman (and the Wall Street Journal,)

“The truth about the “good war” is to be found in compelling evidence that the 2001 invasion, widely supported in the west as a justifiable response to the 11 September attacks, was actually planned two months prior to 9/11 and that the most pressing problem for Washington was not the Taliban’s links with Osama Bin Laden, but the prospect of the Taliban mullahs losing control of Afghanistan to less reliable mujahedin factions, led by warlords who had been funded and armed by the CIA to fight America’s proxy war against the Soviet occupiers in the 1980s. Known as the Northern Alliance, these mujahedin had been largely a creation of Washington, which believed the “jihadi card” could be used to bring down the Soviet Union. They were the Taliban regime’s implacable foes when the word Taliban was barely heard in the west: when the Clinton administration was secretly courting the mullahs so that the oil company Unocal could build a pipeline across Afghanistan from the Caspian. The Taliban were a product of this and, during the Clinton years, they were admired for their “discipline”. Or, as the Wall Street Journal put it, “[the Taliban] are the players most capable of achieving peace in Afghanistan at this moment in history”.”

Afghanistan is “much better off now”

Human Rights Watch has documented atrocities “committed by gunmen and warlords who were propelled into power by the United States and its coalition partners after the Taliban fell in 2001” and who have “essentially hijacked the country”. The report describes army and police troops controlled by the warlords kidnapping villagers with impunity and holding them for ransom in unofficial prisons; the widespread rape of women, girls and boys; routine extortion, robbery and arbitrary murder. Girls’ schools are burned down. “Because the soldiers are targeting women and girls”, the report says, “many are staying indoors, making it impossible for them to attend school [or] go to work”.

John Pilger Pulitzer prize winning independent journalist:

“I had not seen anything like it. Kabul is a glimpse of Dresden post-1945, with contours of rubble rather than streets, where people live in collapsed buildings, like earthquake victims waiting for rescue. They have no light and heat; their apocalyptic fires burn through the night. Hardly a wall stands that does not bear the pock-marks of almost every calibre of weapon. Cars lie upended at roundabouts. Power poles built for a modern fleet of trolley buses are twisted like paperclips. The buses are stacked on top of each other, reminiscent of the pyramids of machines erected by the Khmer Rouge to mark Year Zero.”

Etc., etc., etc.,...now go do your own reading.

That’s great. So, here, your use of Lady Liberty is of a defender.
If I get your explanation right, you are expressing defending the foundations of truth, liberty and freedom.
This is the interpretation everyone should see in your photo – not that you can see that interpretation directly, but that is your intent.
And if that is the case, then you are using her proudly to display her as a positive symbol of our Country and the freedoms it represents. In effect, her usage was an effort to express the greatness of the US in regards to truth, liberty & freedom? Because that is how she would be deemed patriotic based on your above definition. Unless, you really mean the opposite – that’s not patriotic, nor what you’ve been arguing.

He that wishes to see his country robbed of its rights cannot be a patriot.
What specifically does that have to do with your image? Nothing.

So, b/c you apparently decided to retain the image of Lady Liberty without defacing her, but surrounded her w/ disturbing images – as opposed to her actual surroundings makes you feel more patriotic about the image as a whole & the use of her : )

If the title isn’t telling enough: The Smoldering Torch, The shining light of freedom and liberty that the light in that torch represented is nothing more than a smoldering ember now.
Please tell me what part of American history makes you proud? When, exactly, was the US w/o some sort of war, racism, etc… that you are referring to. Any time – just tell me – or have you never been proud.

Shayne, not one of those references has anything to do with your retort to Miron – which, of course, is what you were asked about.
And for every “horror” story you reference there is a positive one. Yet, the specific question has yet to be addresses – keep reading.

Dear Danny, “And the status of the women is incomparably better.” is a direct quote from Miron, the other quotes refer to points he raised which were untrue. Tbh., I’m spending way too much time debating with uniformed naysayers here. It’s like trying to teach a pig to whistle: all you get is sore lips and an angry pig.

You’ll got to your grave as ignorant or as informed as you choose to be, but you should consider that in your willful ignorance you are only a part of the cancer that is eating your country…and in that respect, Helen is more of a patriot than you’re ever likely to be.

That’s great. So, here, your use of Lady Liberty is of a defender.
If I get your explanation right, you are expressing defending the foundations of truth, liberty and freedom.

Yes, the Statue still represents freedom and liberty, BUT her virtues have been abused by corporate greed and despotic administrations and used as justification to commit the very crimes our government charges against others.

These are just a very very few examples of the hypocrisy that is the government:

1. our government proclaims genocide is a crime against humanity, yet the administration of President Andrew Jackson engaged in the systematic murder of Native Americans by denying them lifesaving smallpox vaccine Link Moreover, we do not intervene where genocide is being committed unless there is something to be gained either financially or a strategic military position to be had

1. claimed that Iraq had chemical weapons of mass destruction and was prepared to use them, and then the US military used white phosphorus against the Iraqi people Fallujah Link Thermonuclear bombs are the greatest threat to our continued survival, yet the United States has no fewer than 9,000 nuclear bombs

1. condemns attacks on non- military targets, yet intentionally targeted the civilians of Hiroshima and Nagasaki to break the will of the Japanese and hasten a complete surrender Link This tactic was used again with the shock and awe campaign in Iraq.

1. the culture of fear created by the war on terror has increased intolerance, suspicion of non citizens, and the implementation of legal procedures that undermine fundamental notions of justice. Link

“There is no known, hard evidence that such excess has prevented significant acts of terrorism, and convictions for would-be terrorists of any kind have been few and far between. Someday Americans will be as ashamed of this record as they now have become of the earlier instances in U.S. history of panic by the many prompting intolerance against the few.” Link

1. our soldiers are dying in Iraq and our government has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi people for oil, not liberty and freedom Link

I really must go to bed now. Please do not mistake my lack of response to any questions, assertions, accusations, libelous statements, hate speech, hate mail, invitations to leave the country, or death threats as a refusal or inability to answer. I will address posts after I wake and have about 4 cups of coffee. Good night.

Helen and Shayne, your argument about Afganistan defies logic. Below is a rather long description of life under Taliban, taken from the same RAWA organization that you quote. Most of this rules have been eliminated in the new Consitution and laws. The simplest example is that today women can get medical care. Of course, many problems still exists but old habits do not go away overnight. Like in US, not everything in our Constitution is well implemented, but the Constiturion gives us the legal base to fight on to improve things. This organization RAWA is allowed today to use the Internet and many other means in their fight for women rights – to say that things were better under Taliban defies common sense:

Taliban restrictions and mistreatment of women include the:

1- Complete ban on women’s work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul.

2- Complete ban on women’s activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband).

3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers.

4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors.

5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls’ schools into religious seminaries.)

6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe.

7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram.

8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles.

9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule).

10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off).

11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males.

12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman’s voice).

13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman’s footsteps.)

14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram.

15- Ban on women’s presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind.

16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club.

17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams.

18- Ban on women’s wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are “sexually attracting colors.”

19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose.

20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place.

21- Modification of all place names including the word “women.” For example, “women’s garden” has been renamed “spring garden”.

22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses.

23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes.

24- Ban on male tailors taking women’s measurements or sewing women’s clothes.

25- Ban on female public baths.

26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus.

27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa.

28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women.

29- Ban on women’s pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops.

Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has:

- Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well.

- Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone.

- Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones.

- Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth.

- Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap.

- Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin.

- Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily.

- Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped.

- Anyone who carries objectionable literature will be executed.

- Anyone who converts from Islam to any other religion will be executed.

- Non-Muslim minorities must distinct badge or stitch a yellow cloth onto their dress to be differentiated from the majority Muslim population. Just like what did Nazis with Jews.

- Banned the use of the internet by both ordinary Afghans and foreigners.

And so on…

Gee Here we go again with all this political stuff on a art forum where we are suppose to be having fun! Gee whats going on here?
I will say this to your saying America is Racist ! Your right in one respect but try living in Europe!
I live in Europe for 20 years and I can tell you that compared to Europe America is the only place a person of color will ever have a chance! Sure there will be success storys about a few who came to europe and did well like me! But on the whole its not a place where you will have a chance to be what you want to be! And thats anyone with color!
I know both places very well and I will say that America offers you more chances to make a good life and have something if you put in the effort ! Colors a small problem if you learn the ropes and play the game right!
Its the only place in the world where people from all over the world want to be no matter how bad they say it is!
Ask anyone where they want to live and they all say America!
I’am sorry but yes we have problems but its small compared to here!
People of color are still looked at as inferior and jobs are few most people here don’t want to work or live next to anyone who’s a different color and thats from the north to the south of europe! A few country’s have more people of color and accept them but the average person has fear!
TV, the medias spin on people of color being dangerous and GANSTA RAPs helped seal their fear of us !
But its not only color its nation againts nation too!
So Miss Hate I think before you really start bashing our America you come on over here and see exactly how good you have it there even with its color problems your sitting in a place where you can make a great life and have some friends and be happy!
Before you complain about there come here and live for a few years and see where you will be when you get up and leave!
Theres no place in the world like America even with its faults anyone can be someone just get an education and work hard just look around and see all the success storys right next door to you of people who came to make a new life!
Its not one story its thousands and thousands! Black lawyers Doctors all type of professionals with color!
Look here I know Black doctors who have to work in the hospitals because the public wont come to them because of their color!
So please get on your knees and thank your lucky stars you live where you live! Because here you would be washing floors thats how they think about people with color!Your a second class citizen whos not wanted!
I live here and every day I miss America and all its problems! Because I can walk down the streets an not have someone come to me and say go home or some word thats the same as nigger! Get what I’am saying Miss Hate!
Get on your knees and be very happy!

Did you know, Miron, that the Taliban all left Afghanistan before the US bombing started? The only targets were civilians…and their sheep. Show me your reference that bin Laden was there, too, if you have one. Your ‘facts’ all seem to be gleaned from US media, which was so quick to acquiesce to the Bush admin’s propaganda. But tell it to the Afghani mother scraping her children off the wall. (Next we can talk about the rich oil deposits in the Caspian basin.)

Shayne, if all Taliban left it must have been the civilians or the sheep shooting at the coalition troops… And the caves of Bora-bora must have been full of shepards…

Wow, that is a pretty hateful rant you had there David. Do you feel better?

So are you saying because there is just a little bit of racism in America I should just shut up about it because it’s worse everywhere else?

*the Clinton administration was secretly courting the mullahs so that the oil company Unocal could build a pipeline across Afghanistan from the Caspian. The Taliban were a product of this and, during the Clinton years, they were admired for their “discipline”. *

If so, where is the pipeline today, after so many years of Taliban regime and US control of Afganistan?

• Oh and by the way, not one of the alleged 9/11 hijackers were members of the Taliban, Al Qaeda, or from Iraq. The majority were Saudi*

Your claim that the hijackers were not Al Qaeda borders on ridiculous.

This is also waiting for an answer.

So why was Clinton wrong to bomb Serbia?

His reasons were wrong. He wanted to increase the defense budget by more than $100 million. The best way to justify spending is to create the need.

The bombing of Yugoslavia may be only the first in a series of recurring overseas interventions—a prospect that should galvanize peace and disarmament groups across America.

The Nation 1999

His reasons were not humanitarian, therefore they were wrong*

So your preference at that point was to let the Bosnian massacres go on? (The choice of discussions with the Serbs was exhausted at that time).
So Bill Clinton was also in bed with the defense contractors?
And why did European nations agree with bombing another European country if not to stop another genocide on their continent?

Other than the FBI claims, there is no hard evidence. Just like Sadaam was supposed to be Al Qaeda, just like the WMDs that never materialized. All propaganda to serve the culture of fear created by the Bush Administration. Believe what you will Miron. I just don’t believe it

There was a ton of evidence found in Afganistan. I remember a video showing bin Laden talking to somebody and bragging about 9/11 and praising one of the hijackers Mohammad Ata. I remember many Arab journalists who before this video were screaming “where is the evidence?” suddenly became quiet after seeing this.

Wait – maybe this was also fabricated…

And since you do not believe that the hijackers were Al Qaeda, please share with us your thoughts about who they were.

I don’t want to be a jerk or anything, but having this convo on a personal image is somewhat amazingly activist and dare i say pathetic (forgive the harshness of words).

But it’s nothing but a bunch of like minded individuals patting each-other on the back.
Thats why I honor the men like, Bernard Goldberg (if you have heard of him) who he himself a liberal seeing it upon himself to go out and see the other view.
This is so not.

And one thing, Helen

_ I reject the kind of liberty that I enjoy if it means it is paid for with the blood of the innocent._

By doing this, you render that person’s blood in vain and for nothing. I’d rather accept it and appreciate it.

Murder is unjustified killing….

Killing is causing death for a purpose/reason.
War is killing not murder.

Suicide bombing, though given a reason, is Murder given that it is placed on the innocent

these words are not interchangeable.

what do you expect in war?
if i say yah theyre collateral damage, you will criticize me and call me unsympathetic
if i say no, im just lying to please you!
The simple fact is that kids arent the target of the co-alition forces and as well as everyone else in here know that. No, they are innocent, and yah! it hurts ME everytime i hear a few kids were killed in a US led battle against insurgents, or rockets.
but fact is, more are killed by suicide bombers (from theyre own nation) than soldiers simply for being sunni and not shia or vise versa.

Helen, you said that the war against Hitler was just one. But plenty of innocents are always killed in just wars, just by bad luck not by design. Here is an example: you were a commander in WW2 and you have clear info that Hitler is at a certain place. You know that many innocents will be killed together with him if you bomb the place. They are clearly not your target. Will you sacrifice them for the benefit of saving million other innocents?

Helen, you did not anwer this:

And a related question: would US be right in starting a military action against the Sudan government?

That conflict began I think back in 2003 (maybe 2002). We delayed our entry into WWII and 6 million Jews and about 5 million others were murdered by the Nazis. The slaughter in Dafur must be stopped, but bombing the hell out of villages of women, children and old men isn’t gong to help.

The Sudanese government and its Janjaeweed bands are burning the hell out of villages of women, children and old men (and don’t forget the mass rapes and torture). My question that you avoided was about military action against the Sudanese government. Would you support such a war?

Awesome work my friend. :o)

I think you pick the wrong forum to always be ranting about something negative why an art forum! And I don’t have a lot of hate you seem to have a lot of issues simply by your symbol it says trouble the moment I first saw it!
We all want to stop hate of any type but sometimes we need to step back and see what it is that were so angry about and then maybe in a different way try to bring about some change!
Believe me I’am just as upset about the situation as you but I choose to make my life a different life based on what I do for me and in the end hopfully it will reflect how others see me and people like me!
I’ve been angry and can still get pissed off at the racism its everywhere and its not gonna stop so what are ya gonna do fight everyone and make more people hate you because your always telling them they are idiots to think like they do!
As a friend told me who was a Masi holy man we’re are living in a white world and until we learn to understand that fact we will always have conflict! They have created a world where they are in control for now and to fight what is a fact will only keep you at a distance while you scream for equality! To gain equality you need to create your own with out looking for them to tell you that you are worthy of respect!
They will see it and give it to you without asking!
You my friend have things you want to point out to all of us as if we were blind! We see clearly but maybe you need to take a closer look at you and what it is that your trying to gain buy making people on this forum distance themselves from you!
I don’t know you and sadly my friend you seem to always have an issue no matter what it is you find a way to make a problem!
I will say this again why not go to a place where what your saying is welcomed!
You want to make a change wth your art then let it do the talking and not your angry voice too!
Your too angry if you cant see that change has been in the makings just look at whos running for president I seem to see a black man running !! Dont you see that change comes maybe notr as fast as you or I want it but if you think back to the times of slavery and them dreaming of a man a black man as the president of the united states I bet they were laughing at that thought ! So we have come a long way but is a slow process! But always fighting can create more harm than good!
Show them what your about by your actions then you don!t need to scream so loudly they will see you!
I wish you love and peace my angry friend!

David Roman—very well said.

I’ve been angry and can still get pissed off at the racism its everywhere and its not gonna stop so what are ya gonna do fight everyone and make more people hate you because your always telling them they are idiots to think like they do!

I tell you what I am going to do—stand up and fight against racism everywhere all the time. People who are racist are idiots,. I make no apology for that statement. Oh yeah, I went there. Racists are idiots. Put that on a tee shirt.

Show them what your about by your actions then you don!t need to scream so loudly they will see you! *

I haven’t screamed one single time. I’ve been quite calm and collected throughout all this discussion. As a matter of fact, I’ve gotten a few chuckles from some of the comments. Oh David, I’m not an angry person. But racism is wrong no matter where it occurs, no matter what the degree of discrimination - a little or a lot - it’s still wrong.

I haven’t written one angry word about any person, but I’ve sure gotten my share of nasty words thrown at me.

I haven’t screamed, I don’t have to. I let my images shout the message about the injustices in this world. Seems the images are shouting the message loud and clear.

My art is my action* David. Can’t people see that? I act against the wrongs by showing it to people right in their faces. Other people are ranting and raving and telling all sorts of horror stories about this image and saying all sorts of ugly things about me. But it’s all good. So far there have been only a handful of people who don’t like this image and would suppress all political speech that is critical of the government.

Miron, no offense but do you read and write English? You just want an argument about anything and everything. I answered your question you just don’t like the answer.

Helen, the comment about my English sounds offensive to me but I will not insult you back.
I could not find your answer to this – here I argued about your claim that there is no evidence that 9/11 was done by Al Qaeda:

_There was a ton of evidence found in Afganistan. I remember a video showing bin Laden talking to somebody and bragging about 9/11 and praising one of the hijackers Mohammad Ata. I remember many Arab journalists who before this video were screaming “where is the evidence?” suddenly became quiet after seeing this.

Wait – maybe this was also fabricated…

And since you do not believe that the hijackers were Al Qaeda, please share with us your thoughts about who they were._

Helen, here is another set of questions (at the end) for which I could not find your anwers:

So why was Clinton wrong to bomb Serbia?

His reasons were wrong. He wanted to increase the defense budget by more than $100 million. The best way to justify spending is to create the need.

His reasons were not humanitarian, therefore they were wrong

So your preference at that point was to let the Bosnian massacres go on? (The choice of discussions with the Serbs was exhausted at that time).
So Bill Clinton was also in bed with the defense contractors?
And why did European nations agree with bombing another European country if not to stop another genocide on their continent?

Helen, you cannot recognize when you lose an argument. Now you say that the truth (whether the hijackers were Al Qaeda or not) does not matter. If so, why did you argue? It’s no point in having a debate with you.

What argument have I lost Miron? The bottom line is it does not matter who funded the Hijackers (although it was the Saudis). There is still racism in America, the US has intentionally bombed civilians, and our civil rights have been greatly curtailed as a result of 9/11.

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition so we can all be free I read recently that the diversion of corn and other grains from food supply to the production of bio fuels will result in a world wide food shortage. I don’t know if this is true, but Walmart shoppers are hording rice.

Miron, here’s the link to one of the many interviews with Rawa (the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.)

It’s amazing that you cannotr even accept the truth from the horse’s “mouth”: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19041.htm

shayne…that source is so fannatical its kinda sad.
Whats sad?
Its sad that some “real” news IS mixed with the nutty crap.
imean come on, read the yellow box headlines, you cant be serious.
By mixing the crap with the gold…you cant take any of it serious at all!

yup, Kenny, the BBC and New Statesman for which John Pilger writes, are well known enclaves for terrorists, communists and homosexuals. We should begin bombing immediately. And direct quotes from RAWA should be ignored because Miron knows better. Now, like I said, I’m spending way too much time debating with uniformed and illiterate naysayers here.

Liberty Enlightening the World (French: La liberté éclairant le monde), commonly known as the Statue of Liberty (French: Statue de la Liberté), was presented to the United States by the people of France in 1886. Standing on Liberty Island in New York Harbor, it is used to welcome all visitors, including immigrants and returning Americans.[5] The copper-clad statue, dedicated on October 28, 1886, commemorates the centennial of the signing of the United States Declaration of Independence and is a gesture of friendship from France to the United States.[6] Frédéric Auguste Bartholdi sculpted the statue⁷ and obtained a U.S. patent for its structure.[8] Alexandre Gustave Eiffel (designer of the Eiffel Tower) engineered the internal structure. Eugène Viollet-le-Duc was responsible for the choice of copper in the statue’s construction and adoption of the repoussé technique, where a malleable metal is hammered on the reverse side.[9]

The statue is of a robed woman holding a torch, and is made of a sheeting of pure copper, hung on a framework of steel (originally puddled iron) with the exception of the flame of the torch, which is coated in gold leaf (originally made of copper and later altered to hold glass panes.) It stands atop a rectangular stonework pedestal with a foundation in the shape of an irregular eleven-pointed star. The statue is 151 ft (46 m) tall, but with the pedestal and foundation, it is 305 ft (93 m) tall.

Worldwide, the Statue of Liberty is one of the most recognizable icons of the United States,[10] and, more generally, represents liberty and escape from oppression. The Statue of Liberty was, from 1886 until the jet age, often one of the first glimpses of the United States for millions of immigrants after ocean voyages from Europe. Visually, the Statue of Liberty appears to draw inspiration from il Sancarlone or the Colossus of Rhodes.

The statue is a central part of Statue of Liberty National Monument, administered by the National Park Service.

It’s a statue that was given as a gift to America from France after a bitter war to break from the shackles of colonisation… I believe…

I question this… if this statue (object) is representative of freedom… and is placed on a pedestal of idealism… how are people going to react when they find that it’s all a lie because they are not protected by her flame??? Particularly when they are told to bow down and worship the greatness that forces them into the dark… Capitalism alone (the pure Capitalism as written about by Adam Smith, adopted in totalitarianism by a nation wishing to isolate themselves from European affairs to build their internal economic and military strength following the war of Independence… breeds internal and social and economic segregation… that isn’t a lie… so why is it a crime then, or considered hateful, for a social commentary to be made that challenges that view…

Why would anyone ANYONE carry on and pass judgement on this as a slight on Helen’s nationalism or pride in the EARTH she lives on… WE ARE ONE EARTH GODDAMMIT… We all WALK ON THE SAME SOIL…

I do hate many of the policies that American governments have enacted at home and on the world… I possibly also hate many of the people that support them… and that makes me a hypocrite I suppose… by to stop hate, we must stop the people hating and that means that good people need to find callousness in order to stand up and say NO YOU ARE WRONG… THIS WORLD IS A MESS BECAUSE people have been ‘tricked’ into WORSHIPPING people who are massively destructive, greedy, selfish and vain…

I have also been know to say thought that I hate my own country and am still deeply scared that we sided in any conflict that has not got a peace keeping role…

Australia have troops in East Timor to protect people, in Iraq, I’m not sure that’s the case…

My cousin’s husband leaves for Baghdad in a couple of weeks for 8 months… his 3rd tour to Iraq… our government announced a month or so ago that they were pulling them all out – that isn’t the case, despite the tickertape parades…

Those American’s that died in the Twin Towers, I wonder if in death have found solace with the victims of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the Jewish victims of the Holocaust, the victims in Cambodia and I wonder too, if the victims of Sadam have found friends with the twin towers ghosts… they all have something massive in common… they all died in the face of ‘business’ as usual, for ‘private’ investments and an econmomy that is only survided by the fact that they can keep evolution and science away from the fossil fuels industry through mis-education and lies…

Can I say that I hate american policy, that I hate australian policy… can I say that…

Can I ask why a bronze statue is the soul of a nation when I reckon if she could speak she would tell America to shut up and help the homeless and the poor and the sick that it is neglecting at home before worrying about other people’s money and trade resources… like it set out to do before they found the bomb and Harry S Truman’s ego?

Did you know???

During the 19th Century (just before the Great War broke out), a peace movement developed in Europe. Peace societies were formed in the United States, Britain, France and Switzerland. Nations used arbitration to settle disputes peacefully.

In 1899, *Tsar Nicholas II of Russia invited nations to a peace conference at the Hague. 26 nations came to discuss methods of keeping peace. The countries were unable to agree on disarmament. However, they decided to:

1. allow the Red Cross special rights in war
2. set conditions for prisoners of war
3. outlaw the use of poison gas in war
4. set up a permanent court at the Hague to judge disputes placed before it…

In 1907 a second peace conference was held. The peace movement was unable to prevent war but it promoted the idea that there could be peaceful ways to settle world problems. This idea was later taken up in other peace movements and the League of Nations.

Nicolas was murdered in a coup by his own people…

Can I suggest that the root of all world conflict everywhere forever has been based on the basic need for people to survive and the desire to for a collective army when faced with adversity…

The world war’s have always be based on jealously and greed… the desire for more resources (be they agrarian or industrial) the lack of ability to control population in relationships to provision… and the desire for some fucked up egos to take over that which wasn’t theirs to begin with and to gather as much of it as possible and tell everyone else to get deaded…

I mean… the freaking stats are 80% poor to 20% rich… that alone states that there are people who simple HAVE TOOO MUCH AND SHOULD GIVE IT BACK WITHOUT ASKING FOR A SLAP ON THE BACK FOR SAVING THE DAY WHEN THEY STOLE THE SUNSHINE IN THE FIRST PLACE…

This is the trend America (and it’s allies) follow with war… in WW2 it was… we’re stayin out we’re staying out… oh but this bomb… will get us some media… oh yeah… we’ll join at the end of the conflict… drop a big fucking dirty Abomb on a bunch of innocent people (who may not have supported the government’s policies even though they still lived in Japan the Same Japan I live in here in Australia… all the same Earth remember) and then claim to be the Heroes… blah…

Why have America not sent their army to Zimbabwe, or China… ???

Wasn’t the beef with 9/11 with the Al Queda… how the hell is Al Queda Iraqi government, women, children and men??? simply how…???

Plus from some of the things I have read, the American government had just as much hand in the events that surround 9/11 as anyone else…

Also… 9/11 wasn’t a holocaust… it was a terrorist attack… population and proportion wise, have there not been more deaths of American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan than the total deaths in the World Trade Centre bombings…

In fact, can you add up all the killings from gun murders and massacres in America from September 11, 2001 and compare that to the victims please…

The reason 9/11 matters so much was because those people were in the big business sector of town… and those buildings had computers in them that were linked to the stock market and the economy…

Wasn’t it a triumph to celebrate when Wall street got back online so soooooo fast…

From here in Australia after hours and hours and hours of non-stop news broadcasts… I just thought that was a little sick…

ps the statue of liberty introduction there was from Wikipedia.com

Wow, Kathleen, that’s quite a rant. One of the best I’ve seen here.

I’m curious, however, what any of that had to do with Helen’s image being “pro-Country” (the original point of the discussion)? Can you clearly explain how that image is patriotic?

It would be interesting since Helen herself claimed above to be the only one who knew what it meant – so if you don’t know it’s meaning what was the point of the rant & if you do know how is it that you’re the only person aside from Helen that understands it?

Wow, Helen, way to go! I thought this ended when we went to bed last night. How powerful a thread to have this continued debate so long after the posting. Does it get any better ; )

lol

you really are wacked! love the way you twisted the shit out of the original issue to suit your own agenda…...

I have absolutely no problem with that…. as usual… start a problem and then banish anyone who doesnt go along with your views…. fine with me… you have nothing of value to offer to this discussion either.. lol

I suppose you find dead babies funny.
Does that have anything to do with how Lady Liberty is portrayed as patriotic in your image?

@ whoever it was up there that addressed me… the point is that it has nothing to do with anything that you were saying… i was commenting on the image from my political and observational perspective…

the other thing I observe is a bunch of people in a mob with pitchforks… Why are you here… hasn’t your point being stated elsewhere… this is a personal page, I thought opinions were meant to be expressed… and mate… you haven’t been here long enough, this is an ongoing and tiresome ranting pattern that happens here by people… wave after wave of different and yet similar personalaities pop up around particular artists with the same old tiresome ways of doing whatever it is that you think that you do… whatever…

the reason I don’t rant at people directly anymore is cause I have better things to do…

trust me… you aren’t the first to follow and post in this particular manner… all Helen did was post a piece of art… just like you do… people always say she hates her country… or that’s she’s rude… I find that perspective particularly interesting as I see her (as do many) a passionate, motivated, intelligent woman who finds a solace in expressing her frustration in the world through her creative lens…

she deserves respect for that alone and I will give it to her… I’ve been here a long while and observed many personalities and there so are patterns… ask anyone that’s been here over a year… it’s a mixed bag…

and yes… some people do come here for this kind of intellectual and thought provoking discussion… if you don’t like it… find a bubble space of your own please… isn’t this site big enough…

or do you feel an intent need on bursting helen’s redbubble…

seriously, the woman is heckled… I don’t find her offensive and she has many friends… why can’t you see that this community is diverse… just like the world…

you expect your rights of speech to be upheld…

whatever…

my rant was about the state of the world in relation to what I felt about the image that Helen presented in contrast to a couple of things I read at random around this piece…

I am not obligated to read every response, and neither am I obligated to interact with those responses, however, I do at times feel a need to react to them… in which case, my dialogue is with the author, on their own web page…

thanks for reading it though… didn’t realised I was obligated to make sense to you… I am sure I made sense to some people…

@ Kathleen: my rant was about the state of the world in relation to what I felt about the image that Helen presented

OK, so it was a rant – Agreed.

This has nothing to do w/ respect, so we can discount that issue.

How is questioning the interpretation of an image bursting helen’s redbubble? I give Helen credit for having tougher skin than that. This is not her first time in the fray.

You claim to see Helen (as do many) a passionate, motivated, intelligent woman and I agree, what does that have to do w/ a simple disagreement about the use of Lady Liberty in an image where one hides true feelings behind the cloak of patriotism?

But, why is it that your “feeling” about the image any more accurate than anyone else’s? Helen claims that only she knows what it means and those that disagree don’t see the “truth” in the image. So, I guess simply b/c you agree with the image – yet not for what it means – since you admit this is just your “feeling” you somehow know better. lol…

No one made you obliged to read every response. Again, this is simple – please explain how the above image is “pro-American”, a question I can’t get a straight answer to.

Ask me to leave? Why? A simple question can’t be answered? Or even debated?

MY FINAL POST

This image is not funny as suggested by the posted “LOL”. There is nothing funny about the death of millions of people, many of them babies. It is my right and duty as an American to complain about my government and to point out the things that it has done in the name of Liberty and Freedom. And because it is my right to redress my grievances in language and symbolically through visual representation, my portrayal of Lady Liberty in a bombed out wasteland, with lynched American citizens, and a smoldering cinder in place of her flame is patriotic.

Yes, the Statue still represents freedom and liberty, BUT her virtues have been abused by corporate greed and despotic administrations and used as justification to commit the very crimes our government charges against others.

The image is patriotic and shows love and support for this country because, despite the ugliness, the violence, and the death, I have presented Lady Liberty without defacing her. This evidences my belief that there is hope for positive change.

It is patriotic because I care enough about the state of living in these United States to bring these issues to the global community and to suffer abuse for my efforts.

It is patriotic because I am willing to make an effort to spark people to action and get them talking about America and the downward spiral course we are on as a nation and as a society.

It is patriotic because someone has to stand up and say “enough war for oil.”

It is patriotic and dead babies are relevant because so many have died in her name—our soldiers and citizens and people all over the world. Isn’t it claimed that the soldiers in Iraq “fight so that we may be free?” They are fighting a false war for the oil barons and defense contractors. They and the people of Iraq are dying for a lie. So yes, dead babies is very relevant to the portrayal of Lady Liberty and the lies we are being told in her name.

---

I have answered every conceivable relevant question regarding this work. If you need further clarification I recommend that you re- read all previous posts. If you reject my explanation about my own work, then that is your failing which I can not address. It is what I say it is: accept it, reject it. I will answer no more questions of a personal nature.

does being born in a particular petitioned nation dictate that you must be a patriot? or patriotic?

Where then does that leave being loyal to the EARTH…

does being born under a statue that apparently represent the sum total of people’s ideals about what a nation should be mean that you are free???

or are you a slave to patriotism…? can one not be patriotic and still use a nations symbols to portray their feelings?

do you get born to a country or to a life?

in god we trust, yet we worship bronze statues representing a single solitary virtue…

So then…

what do you think of this image uploaded just last night by my friend Cliff Vestergaard who has been a redbubbler for way over 12 months… he is a Canadian ex-pat who lives in Queensland…

Is the message different?

Is it different cause it isn’t created by and American living in America…

I think the truth in this piece is that Helen had the guts to express herself… that she was honest and felt a responsibility to do so…

or this

Where I chose to illustrate that the colours of the flag and that war in the name of one christian god is not in the name of my peaceful christian god… regardless of religion, I (an Aussie) criticised your government and used your patriotic colours to do it… is that different…

you seem to be saying that because Helen is an American, she is not allowed to make pieces of art depicting her observations of her perspective of America… and then place them in her Sales portfolio to try to sell, and to also raise awareness to her view… and perhaps find other people who feel these things to to connect to and discuss and to try to make sense of the way we feel and the atrocious and corrupt things that are apparently happening in the world…

my goodness… you guys must REALLY hate people like Mike Moore, Ani Defranco, Pearl Jam, Michael Franti and Spearhead, Rage Against the Machine… god who else, my CD collection is full of unpatriotic American’s educating me about America…

Thank god for them… I say it LOUD thanks be to the lord!

Keep arguing Helen… go girl!

Wow, I’m shocked. After the decent & civil debate we were engaged in – I’m surprised at your most recent responses.

Such Anger! Such Impatience! Such B.S.!

You have NOT answered every conceivable relevant question regarding this work. You have yet, despite the repeated attempts, to be able, in an eloquent & intelligent way, to state how the average person viewing this work would perceive that image as “patriotic” &/or “pro-USA”. You simply hide behind I created this image and I alone know what it means. This image means that I love my America. LOL… that is both imperious & disingenuous.

If someone needs a 7 paragraph litany to understand how this image is patriotic I guess you failed in conveying your message ; )

This image is NOT patriotic! This image is NOT pro-Country!
And no conceivable definition, or even any sense of the imagination, can make it so.
No amount of twisting the truth actually aids in your blind ambition to expose the failings of this Country or the fact that this is your genuine ambition.
This Country is the best the world has ever had to offer, but not for you.
Failings can be found in every country across the globe – far more serious and notorious in basically every other industrialized country – yet you neglect to expound on any of those failings and focus solely on the US, not truly for the sake of improvement but b/c you only look through the tainted lens of malcontentment – but you are the “patriot” – LOL.

You can’t even state the positive this Country has done w/o adding qualifiers of how bad it is. (See Your response above). This alone is telling!

BTW, your personal attacks add nothing but to expose your inability to support your own work and words with logic & reason.

We both know that if I had told you how much I “loved” your image & how “true” it was this debate never would have occurred – you would have applauded my insight and wisdom (See Your responses above to those who “liked” it compared to those who question it’s integrity).
Yet, b/c I am not some liberal sycophant and challenged the vision, insight & interpretation of the image I should be asked to leave the thread.
Not a very Transformational Activist perspective!

Say no more, I won’t read, nor comment, further. As per your anticipated request, I will leave the thread.

Beautiful job, Helen… and to those that would try and censor this image. remember that, first, it came from France, not the US, and second, that part of the symbolism that she represents is freedom of speech and expression, as well as prohibiting censorship of beliefs (as in religion). How often I find that people forget that THEY ARE the country, and that the GOVERNMENT IS NOT THE COUNTRY, but rather a public servant of THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE, for whom the people that employ them pay them well.

So actually, to exclude her here would be hypocritical to all that she is supposed to represent.

As far as the argument of this being about critiquing the image, OK then… I love the shrine in the background that symbolizes the selling off of America to the Chinese at the rate of about 8.5 billion dollars a day. I love the desolation and debris, symbolizing in my mind the governments failure to deal with the victims of Hurricane Katrina and the masses of AMERICANS in the New Orleans region left to fend for themselves.
These are just some of my interpretations of this image as an artist… and an American!

My three biggist pet peeves are liars, thieves, and HYPOCRITES!!

Right on, Helen… you go girl and educate what she really represents. I have a greater respect for you with every new image that you post where you portray the truths of America, instead of the myths.

Peace & Love,

Grouchy ;)

you miss the point it doesn’t NEED to scream patriotism… it’s Helen’s FEELINGS… no one needs to paint her one way or another… it’s HELEN’s American… NOT yours and NOT anyone else’s… if she feels patriotic despite her expression … far out…!!!

This:
You have yet, despite the repeated attempts, to be able, in an eloquent & intelligent…
is a personal attack on Helen… not necessary…

This:
This Country is the best the world has ever had to offer
Is a fucking Joke and an Insult to the rest of the world…

If you do come back to this page to see the reaction (and I am sure you will)...

How come you totally attacked Helen, and ignored Cliff’s image of the Statue…

Not interested in Art are you mate… you just came here to burn her…

how’s this AMERICA SUCKS… How’s this… AMERICAN’S ARE LOUD MOUTH BIGOTS…

Individuals are more substantial…

Of course, I just said those things… you don’t really know whether I believe them or not…

Helen is sick to fucking death of you Patriotics coming to her work and having certain people do this… OVER AND OVER AGAIN… Patriots who don’t obviously give a frig about other Americans…

You dumped Helen here on her arse (sorry ass) pretty fucking quick… is that reflected in foreign policy…

Or are you all of a sudden ignoring me cause I am not an American..

And what about the other’s who believe the same as Helen… are you seeking them out.

PLEASE TELL ME… I don’t like being ignored…

again… YOU miss the point… if you are attacking her ART on HER page she is Allowed to ask you to leave if she feels threatened by you… and… I watched and revisited… I saw Helen upload find people quite positive and another wishing to further the discussion and then I saw a lynch mob…

I guess one could say that is typical of some aspects of US history… couldn’t one???

Oh… fine then ignore me…

Once again…

What is the difference between Helen’s pic and this one…

I don’t think it’s about the image; it’s about the words. I took one of russell lee klika’s propaganda pix and filled it out to tell the whole story and it barely raised a ripple.

I don’t think it’s too hard to interpret or accept the meaning of Helen’s work…under the shadow of Lady Liberty, and all that is supposed to stand for, minorities especially blacks and women still suffer withing the States while across the world, war crimes, mass murder, kidnapping and torture become a part of the American way. For one woman to stand up against such developments in her own country is something to be applauded and highly commended.

shayne, did you have russell’s permission or did you just flat out steal it?

You can report the image through the established protocols. Please refrain from personal attacks on any other member of RedBubble, including myself.

Mr. Klika previously stated that his work is in the public domain. His images are property of the United States Department of Defense. I have a screen capture of his page stating this. Here are some links:

CACHED PAGE WITH PUBLIC DOMAIN STATEMENT
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:WekhXtnek5cJ:www.redbubble.com/people/klika100+russell+lee+klika+public+domain+photographs&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

OTHER LINKS
http://www.army.mil/-images/2007/08/29/7452/
http://www.clipartguide.com/_search_terms/pd_russell_klika.html

Your concerns are appropriately addressed directly to RedBubble.

There are always people who want to censor unpleasant truths. I think you are very courageous and very right. And I think Red Bubble has to be just as courageous and refuse to bow to small minded censors who would take away yet one more of our rights. If some people had their way there would be nothing on Red Bubble but photographs of pretty flowers and fluffy pussy cats. I can not condone censorship of any kind. If some people disagree with an art work, they have the right to express themselves. In a free society we should all have the right of freedom of expression!

I have read every comment, I cannot believe how Helen’s work is targeted! The picture Kathleen refers to is just as controversial and yet it has recieved praise from some of the people who are here opposing Helens picture and calling her un-patriotic! Holy bejeesus ! The above picture appears to be the Statue of liberty holding a book? Now is that supposed to represent the Koran? Now isnt that a little unpatriotic? I see a little bit of hypocracy going on here! Helen is a brilliant and passionate woman. Who speaks LOUD and clear her values. I do not believe for one minute that she is un-american. Sometimes the picture is a little clearer from the outside looking in. You go girl!!

Helem, I could not agree with your plight more! I feel the same way about our country!

I’m not sure which breaks my heart more – this image of these children or the hate in this thread. God help us.

Bob Dylan wrote ’ Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundral clings ’ – is he right? I think so; Osama Bin Laden justifies by his ’ patriotism ’ & Hiltler by his, and most of you lot by yours. I don’t think there is a person posting here that wouln’t take up arms to defend their family, friends, home but I wonder why there are so many of you who will attack one another over this art work? I think that it is because it challenges your confidence in what you believe.

Many evils and sins against God and humanity are commited because ones confidence in what one believes is challenged/shaken.

No country in the world is innocent – no human being is innocent – we are all guilty – and we all need to be challenged so that we can analyse ourselves and be honest with ourselves and do something about ourselves. It isn’t until we we change that the world will change because the world is us!

What is RedBubble? Is it not a place for beings to gather together?...From ALL walks of life…ALL cultures…ALL…Regardless….NOT ANYMORE!!...What is Current Issues Group for?...Is it not a place for beings to contribute art expressing views, fears, hopes…about Current Issues? I dont understand why someone would pass judgement on someone elses art so violently…IT’S JUST AN IMAGE!!!!! IT CANT HURT YOU UNLESS YOU CHOOSE TO LET IT HURT YOU!!!ITS JUST A FUCKING IMAGE!!!! ITS HELENS ART…NOT YOURS!!!WHAT ARE YOU SO AFRAID OF? NOW I HEAR HELEN HAS LEFT RB FOR AWHILE? WAS SHE KICKED OUT? SUSPENDED?...PUNISHED?WAS RB THREATENED WITH SOME LEGAL-CRAP?BECAUSE SOME WHINY NARROW-MINDED JUDGEMENT FREAKS CANT HANDLE TRUE EXPRESSION…THEY SHOULD STAY OUT OF CURRENT ISSUES…WHY DO YOU THINK I DONT GO TO CHURCH!!! BECAUSE I DONT AGREE WITH IT!!!! SO I DONT GO!!! YOU HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS!! IF HELENS KICKED OUT…THEN RB HAD BETTER KICK MY ASS OUT TOO!!
“FIGHT WAR NOT WARS”
noyou
yesme

I see this as a thought provoking work with a powerful message. I’m a brit, but to me it isn’t an anti-American image. It asks ‘what is Liberty about?’ It’s an image designed to make you think – and it works!

nice artwork with a strong political commentary. can be perceived in many ways. if and when America becomes a global target of retribution, I only hope it is not the people that get bombed.

A must view…. History Of Survival

Peace…......

Helen, to be political is to speak the truth as you see it based on your own perception. And, of course I have taken into consideration your explanation as to the meaning of the work. So, now, I shall add my comment as to what I perceive. And, I ask these questions of all Americans… Q: Would you poison or imprison an entire Native American People to expand your nation? A: Yes you would. Q: Would you impose slavery upon an entire race of people to build your nation? A: Yes you would. Q: Would you incinerate 200,000 people including women and children to protect your freedom? A: Yes you would. Q: Would you bomb a nation illegally and kill tens of thousands of innocent civilians and needlessly cause the death of thousands of American soldiers for reasons that have proven to be false? A: Yes you would. This is what your piece has said to me.

Liberty requires the blood of innocents. there should be a question here, and the question – should it? Liberty requires the blood of innocents?
extremely powerful and bold piece of work

Is it more patriotic for the President to knowingly lie to the American people and start a war that has killed nearly 1,000,000,000 innocent people, or to raise fair critisism ?
I have watched Pentagon White House advisors say that Bush, Chaney, Rumpsfeld and Powell knew that they lied, when they presented their case for war in Iraq. Their only reason for it was to remove future problems with Saddam. They have divided up the oil concessions between Halliburton and Hunt oil, without the consent of the Iraqi government.
Anyone who critisises and protests is more patriotic than those who blindly accept and hide in fear.

The statue of liberty is just a statue. Not even an American one. A gift from the French.

It reminds me of Revelations 12 and 17.

The USA, like the rest of the world needs to develope a system of democracy that gives you more that the choice between A and B. The one you voted out last time and the one you want out this time./ How do you guarentee you will get government ? Hold both parties. That is the choice.

Nationalism has brought the worst horrors of the last century, if not the last thousand years.

wonderful!!

here my t-shirt with actual war and other conflicts with the link to the WORLD AT WAR…..................

great work Helen......

fucking great work.
unbelievable fuss about nothing. what are they all goingon about? people don’t half take things personally round here, don’t they?

Powerful alright , well done. Some facts have to be faced , a lot of people around the world are hating America at this point in time for many a reason. A heap of oldies that are due to retire around the world hate America big time , subprime loan rippoffs. People are losing thier houses all over the world because the government and financial instituions of Americans greed. America will rise again , hopefully , or destroy it’s self at this rate.

A Very powerful piece!

Hard to look at. awwwww the fuKing horrible things people do to each other for power, money, Oil, control, POWER !! Liberating ? How the FcK is torturing someone else liberating ??? This image is necessary Helen. Thank-you ! Thank-you for dealing with the Hard issues.

well done helen, that statue of ‘liberty’ is a very sick joke, you’ve sparked quite a reaction here, always a good sign, keep on freedom fighting.

Wow! I started reading and then realized how much of a discussion you sparked. It’s already passed my bedtime, but I wanted to ask – Isn’t the structure behind Lady Liberty a symbol of Harmony? That can be viewed in a few different ways in this piece. It is behind the Statue of Liberty… Is she blocking the harmony?... Is America vibrating harmoniously?... I love art that makes people think and talk and hopefully act! Great work.

getting to the bottom of this commenting line was almost as hard as sitting and listening to SOME politicians speak

very good!

there is a lot going on here. you are making people think! look at all the responses. well done! i totally agree with you, and therefore, left the U.S. I was too angry most of the time about many issues raised here. It was time to get out. I still ote though – and it won’t be for Palin and the new Bush.

Wow! Speechless…So much going on here… Your collage work is spectacular and really makes the point well!

I see a lot of hope here, Helen , amongst the rubble. I always want to believe that the human spirit will go on despite the fascism and warmongering. I saw a movie the other day called God Grew Tired Of Us , about the lost boys of Sudan. These boys (now men) went through awful things at the hands of their own government that no human should ever have to endure, but they came through (most of them) with kindness and dignity and hope. Bringer Of Liberty suggests that that’s possible.

Helen this is outstanding work and keep doing what you do so very well and be honest and brave and stand up for the truth, my hats off to you, and certainly this is no laughing matter and most of us know what is going on in the world and it ain’t good!!!!!
you certainly have my support, take care dear P

trembling work…............excellent

Very Great, Thought Provoking ART.

I dig this one! Finally your artistic ability, though limited, is showing through.

@ mja – And you are so talented?? With not one piece of art up and you have the audacity to judge Pissoff…...

Wow! What a nasty person!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Should be suspended!!!!!!!!!!!! Write to rb that was not needed. Love ya Helen and you are a terrific person and artist and writer as well!!!!!!! You Rock:))))

Do you believe this “Liberty requires the blood of innocents” Helen? I’m confused with what stance you’re or pov you you’re intending?

“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.” ~ George Bernard Shaw
“The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.” ~ H.L. Mencken
“Naturally the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” ~ Hermann Goering

and the list of such insight and pov is endless… in my view “blind” and unquestioning “patriotism” is what the devious require to remain in position of power, control, manipulation, spin-doctoring, and such-like, maintaining their greedy-needy and egos of inadequacy, to the detriment of the general populace … enslaved by compulsory, inter-generational enforced indoctrination, hypocritically called “education”, a fundamental requirement to creation and maintenance of a “culture” as an example.

It would seem that many have been somewhat disturbed and perhaps further confused, on this image, Helen’s intent/motive, and the degenerating into a free-for-all mud-slinging of a personal nature amongst some … pity … but heh, that’s how the “power-brokers” like it … herd behaviour … thanks to everyone for the bluntness and openess of such reactions and responses … further validation of some of my own “personal” observations and reflections on the condition and conditioning of the dominant cultural mind-set-in-fixation and that of the POVs of people living in “position of privilege” ... good luck & all the best to all … and peace be to you and yours dear Helen. TC4N …

Hahahahaha…. your priceless Helen!! :)

BRILLIANT Helen, this is a beautiful and powerful work of art, with so much drama and meaning.

helen, this is just superb!!

A powerful image..creates a lot of emotions from the comments I have seen. No, the nuclear bombs we dropped were not completely justified, but we also had them attack us first. They drew us into that war, and they didn’t back down. Yes, they paid a heavy price. However, if it were not for the U.S.A. dropping an awful lot of bombs, a lot of Europe would be very different today. As for the current armed conflicts we are involved in. Afganistan is justified. Not very well planned, but justified.

By the way, that’s not a judgement on you, HM, that’s just my opinion. The piece itself is awesome and powerful.

Totally APPROPRIATE. Helen I love your work, your courage, your HONESTY and your artistic integrity. So Glad you commented my work or I wouldn’t have found you! You’ve introduced me to a whole new world within redbubble! Thank you and keep up the great work.

Very strong message.

Images of Blacks being lynched by Whites in America is not hating America—it’s telling the truth about our terrible past.

Some may see blacks lynched by whites. That is a peculiar lens. The truth is that these were Republicans lynched by Democrats. Some were black and some were white but Democrats hated both.

That today these lynchings are seen as white on black crime is yet another lynching by Democrats – this time of the truth, but that is a type of lynching that still comes easy to Democrats.

Hi Helen,
I have followed and admired your art for some time now.
I just had to add this in as somehow this gets lost and overlooked in the mix. Lest we forget. These numbers appall me.
Death by their own government.
The megamurdering states of the 20th century have been: the U.S.S.R. (1917-1987), 61,911,000; Communist China (1949-1987), 35,236,000; Nazi Germany (1933-1945), 20,946,000; and Nationalist (or Kuomintang) China (1928-1949), 10,076,000. These are followed by the “lesser” megamurdering states: Japan (1936-1945), 5,964,000; Cambodia (1975-1979), 2,035,000; Turkey (1909-1918), 1,883,000; Vietnam (1945-1987), 1,678,000; North Korea (1948-1987), 1,663,000; Poland (1945-1948), 1,585,000; Pakistan (1958-1987), 1,503,000; Mexico (1900-1920), 1,417,000; Yugoslavia (1944-1987), 1,072,000; Czarist Russia (1900-1917), 1,066,000 Irag: 300.000 (Suddam Hussain reign only)
Just to give you a feel for the carnage: Pol Pot’s Khmer Rouge government killed about 31.25 percent of the entire Cambodian population in the 4 short years of power. An additional 200.000 -250,000 boat people died at sea.

I haven’t added the atrocious numbers from Honduras, Indonesia, Uganda, Angola, Lebanon, Iran, Kurdistan, Somalia and the list goes on and on and on…...

This does not even take into consideration the vast amount of torture that occurred and are still occurring in many of these areas.
Woman in specific Islamic states are subject to Genital Mutilation (over 90% of the population in fundamentalist Islam states), wife beating, gang rape, death by stoning etc, etc. This human rights issue has gone largely uncovered by the male dominated media.
I look forward to seeing how you represent these issues in your art.
Deri

I forgot to mention the Iraq war: 92,000 verifiable civilian deaths. Estimated death toll from Saddam’s regime 500.000 to 900,000. Cuba: 20.000-73,000 (depending on if you include the drowned boat people).
And Gregory John, I don’t know where you got the figure of 1,000,000,000 innocent deaths in Iraq, maybe you were referring to the cost of the war in dollars? I think that the actual number is going to be somewhere around $694 billion dollars by the time the current administration adds in an additional $87 billion. It would have been nice to have that money stay in our economy.

I have not been on the Bubble much this year and really miss seeing all the great artwork. You have been producing some very thought provoking and really well done artwork. Judging from the mixed response you are getting your artwork is very effective in what it does.

Really effective social artwork engages both sides of the coin in responses and yours seems to be doing that. It may be discouraging to have to deal with personal attacks and I am not condoning them, but I see them as a measure of success for how effective a piece of social artwork is on delivering a message to both supporters of the idea and dissidents of the idea. The personal attacks basically are telling you that part of your audience is feeling your artwork on an emotional level that has importance to them. To me that is effective social artwork.

It is very wrong to give feedback that escalates into personal attacks. But in some cases, it can be considered a verification on how effective your artwork is. I don’t know if this makes any sense to you, but the bottom line is hang in there regardless and just keep doing what you are doing.
Deri

brilliant

Very well done.

boy oh boy did this cause a stir!! ver good pix. i wish people could just take the art for the art and not start that preaching.

thils pix makes one think. it is powerful.

we are all patriots and believe in our country….whereever we come from.

i think you hit a nerve tho!

and as far as i am concerned it is your art. people can do what art they want. there is offensive obama art. i just ignore it. i believe if there is nothing nice to say. then don’t say it. mary

Shocking – but true – powerful work Helen

Psalms 127:
Unless the LORD builds the house, its builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchmen stand guard in vain…

This has nothing to do with organized religion, it is a scripture from from our Lord,

If you don’t stand for something… You will fall for anything…

Will keep you in my Prayers, now I get the t-shirt… :-)

I am not going to be a part of this disqusting game, unless everyone plays it your way you are rude, kick people out for untilizing “there freedom of speech,you only bring chaos to a site that ismade for Art. Please do not contact me any longer… baitntackle…

such excellent, creative work that speaks volumes!

helen
you are here! great pix helen.

mary