Jienn Heibloem

kk i understand better misswhirli and in the way you have expressed yes I have to agree…..there should not be violations in any form….

Jienn,
I totally agree with you about artistic censorship. But I think we have to make clear the difference between content and intent. If the content is found to be offensive, then I say “suck it up and change the channel”. If the intent is to be offensive, then intent to harm cannot be tolerated.
I enjoy profanities as much as the next good humoured person, but there is an “art” to it.

Out with political correctness, and in with common sense!

Yeah … I agree ….. it’s not about censorship of people …. everyone should have a right to show however they feel … about what ever they feel …. in anyway they feel fit. RB IS a place to do that. I think though, that everyone also has a right as to what WE wish to see ourselves …. if we don’t want to see something that someone else has every right to show … we should have the ability to close that off, of have the choice to be able to ignore it. THAT isn’t censorship … its a right. If there was some way to flag certain things in a way … and then have the ability whether to show (or not show) flagged items, then it’s a win win situation. No one gets censored …. and no one has to see or hear or feel things they don’t want to. As far as Trolls ….. I think in time the trolls will sort themselves out. RB already is a wonderful creative community …. I think 99% of the people here will sort the trolls out themselves. Hopefully before any harm is done.

I think that it is only fair, I mean if we are allowed to give comments that make people happy then we also have the rights to give comments that might upset people.

Even just before a friend of mine told me a painting of mine didn’t look like who it’s suppose to be. I was upset, but only for a moment, because people see things differently. To me, I feel that I have done a very good job, and to him it still needed work. But because of his comment, I was able to see I misjudged the size of the nose (even though I was painting over a photo).

Although I may feel discouraged or upset, if someone posted a comment that wasnt to my liking, I still rather hear the truth, then have a thousand fabricated comments that makes me seem to be popular or makes me feel like I’m a perfect artist.

No one is perfect, and not everyone likes the same things. It takes all kinds to make a world. I want to make it clear that I do not support those who leave comments with the ill intention of hurting others. However, as a community, I believe not only do we need to be loving, caring and accepting, we also have to be honest. I believe that one the purposes of leaving comments, apart from encouraging others, is to help others to improve on their skills and perception. Like they say, there is always room for improvement.

Censorship is one of those topics where you can never get a right answer to. As artists, we like to push our limits. Or should I say, as artists we need to push our limits, our boundries.

If you are upset about a suggestion that someone might have left, walk away, or leave your computer. Come back after you have calmed down, look at your own work again, and try using their angle or perspective. If you still find no room for improvement , then who cares what others think, as long as you’re proud of your own work – thats what matters most (well at least to me).

But if someone really did leave a nasty comment about you or that is irrelevant to your work, fear not, because I really doubt that one little comment would change the views of everyone else here on redbubble on you or your work. I honestly believe, that we, red bubblers, are all smart enough to tell the difference between honesty and plain nastiness.

hmmm thankyou for your sincere debate im sure the Gods of the redbubble world are watching and listening…...

ALL HAIL THE CREATIVE SPIRIT she cries….

I’m all against censorship really. We have a story about that and several military regimes that killed creativity and imposed generic, mindless and feelingless stuff. It’s been more than two decades since the military lost the government due to their own and obvious lack of logic and a series of tragic events. That’s why it scares me when we see democratic governments acting in the background to supress many cultural expressions or opinions because they are “not convenient”. Or, to see that there is the australian comitee that rates and applies censorship to videogames they don’t like or feel pleased about. Such comitee (more like represive institutions) should be wiped out and leave just a conventional board of industry members and others to rate the games and offer information/feedback, not to censure and submerge things in a black void.

The concept I studied in publishing rights is naming today’s censorship as “subtle” or “subliminal” censorship, opposition to the “clear and visible”. The subtle type is worse because it gives the false idea of choice and freedom when everything is actually being surveyed and controlled. You don’t see it, but it’s there.

Anyway, on art, I see RedBubble as an extremely mature place (unlike many other sites) and if trolls do indeed appear to ‘have fun’, I would simply ignore them. They are not worth your or my or anyone’s attention and the lack of attention simply destroys them.

Anyway, good luck on your creative journey!

OMG! AbssalSoul.. thanks a lot.. now you just reminded me what annoys me even more..
The people in charge of the australian censorship to games!!! well their descisions. I mean I understand how some games would be banned from our country.. but come on.. your stoping me from buying games that I do want!! Thank goodness that the UK is getting Bleach, I mean that’s the only reason why we are ‘going’ to be getting the game Bleach (for the Wii).. copy cats!! I don’t see why they would assume that Australians would’nt want games based on an anime. Hmmm I think i went off topic.. so i’ll stop my ranting now…

That’s funny because I see aussies as fans of animé… I mean, you are closer to Japan! It is ilogic of the government to ban such stuff for no reason whatsoever and, seriously, such an embbeded censorship comission should be wiped out without mercy! Aussies, rise and shine! Down with subtle and evil censorship, the one that throws on us things like Big Brother while in the background they don’t tell that Australia bought a nuclear reactor from Argentina… or, looking over here, the fact that they lie about the exports and inflation numbers and hide a lot of statistics about our economy.

censorship is a virus.

problem is when you’re dealing with people’s creative expression, you’re dealing with sensitive material that touches all sorts of invisible nerves and complexes we all like to pretend don’t exist- of both the giver and the receiver.

if comments with the intent to offend should not be permitted, then neither should comments with the intent to heap praise. they are both extremes of the same spectrum, and often people praise others for a similairly selfish motivation- self identification with the artist, work or author- to the jealously that fuels much aggressive commentary.

the internet is not a physical place and no physical harm can come to you. do not forget this. the moment that you do you will have lost touch with reality. it is absolutely safe. fear not.

well said…

Jienn, thanks for raising as it’s an important issue. I think people tend to forget that behind a cyber presence is a real person with ego, feelings and sensitivies. If I had no choice but to accept corrosive or abusive criticism from someone whose nose I’ve been inserted, then I’d be inclined to censor my own work. Sould that be fair?

wow, this is the best thread i’ve ever seen! i’ve had a massive chip, dripping with fat, on my shoulder about this internet slap on the back world. bring on the honesty, i’d rather you bagged my work than wrote one word like ‘amazing!!!’ under it. that’s why flicker sucks.
of course i have yet to put much work up but it’s coming…!

jienn you’re my hero of the day!! and who’s graeme? he’s my hero too if he helped start this…

wow this site’s too cool!

Great thread all … and a difficult issue. The sort of issue where there is no universally shared ‘right’ answer. My thinking is to push the ultimate decision back to individuals. A person’s portfolio is their space – let them set the tone and make judgements on what’s appropriate. I think there’s a similar censorship issue with the content uploaded to RedBubble – what should be accepted? Everything? Most things? Where I like to see this go is to err on the side of accepting everything (legal) and provide people with the power to decide what they want to see – or maybe provide some form of indication that a work may be offensive before someone clicks on it.

the issue at hand isn’t so much about censorship as culture. Nobody really wants to see RB overrun with trolls and crapflooders. Admins should be heavy handed in the removal of out-and-out trollish content.

Alternatively, as mister khan points out, you don’t want the discussion to be nothing more than a massive circle-jerk exercise either, otherwise there’s diminishing returns for intelligent people actively participating.

Finally, Jienn, you should be arrested by the grammar police for your crimes against the English language. Your spell like a nineteenth century drunken prostitute, and your overuse of ellipses is now a leading cause of cancer.

LOL! Jienn. You’ve got everyone here writing a thesis. Mine is a lot simpler.

I agree art can get away with being offensive if it’s clever and makes people think.
But, we’re all people; we have voice, we have feelings. Art is also a very personal thing. It would be nice to take that into consideration when a flame is about to be thrown.

Hey my artists collective got censored last year by the United nations and all we where talking about was the Issues surrounding the Palm Island death incustody incident (which we had been asked to create work about) We had delt with this issues very sensivitly, and cannot understand why we where sensored ( Which really sucks) especially by the United Nations. I have been sensored a number of times (once for these cheeky Vibrator totem poles I made- which I kinda understand).

But as a artist sensorship really sucks! But we must as artists also consider your own morality and be responsible for what we produce and who we may hurt or offend in the process.

This issue is not about censorship of criticism, either positive or negative (where it is invited) – it’s about censorship of unsolicited nastiness and crudeness for the sake of shock value or being unkind to someone else in that person’s bubble space. Most artists encourage constructive criticism, and that is what it should be – constructive. RB has now provided an appropriate tag for works where individuals are inviting such feedback, and we should perhaps stick to criticizing works with that tag. My understanding of “constructive criticism” is feedback on a particular image or piece of writing about how successful or not it is in it’s intent, and why. That’s how we learn (if this is indeed our intention on anything we post on RB).

mister khan/fleece, as you see, I agree that criticism is a good thing. However, many individual are not posting their work here for that purpose. Also, I don’t agree that artists are necessarily purely “back-patting” each other. For some it’s a case of commenting on works that appeal in some way, that affect us on some emotional level, and not leaving comments on works that don’t “speak to” us – surely, receiving no comments conveys a message of “not successful” too, and makes us re-assess that particular work? Do we always need to analyse and verbalise everything? Is there now no longer room for appreciation of anything on a subliminal level? Not everyone is trained to analyse the “why” and the “why not”. Does this devalue those people’s appreciation of something and render their comments in someone’s journal or portfolio invalid or unimportant?

Criticism should be used as a mechanism to assist creative growth, not to stifle it with discouragement.

I totally agree and believe that creative expression within an individual’s own space should never, ever be censored (within legal boundaries, eg, child pornography, etc. – but then only very sick individuals could imagine something like that as creative). We all have a choice about whether we wish to see or read someone else’s work, and can simply “switch channels” if we are offended by it.

_{Finally, Jienn, you should be arrested by the grammar police for your crimes against the English language. Your spell like a nineteenth century drunken prostitute, and your overuse of ellipses is now a leading cause of cancer.} these comments Fleece bring this whole issue right to my face…..with a fist I might add….. but thats fine I am a mature person I can take criticism as equally as I can take praise…. your unprovoked unjustified comments stand as testimony of your mentality, and my comments stand as a testiment to mine.
Thankyou everyone for your attention to this discussion.

Now on the subject of fleece’s comment to Jienn, when does criticism become abuse? I wonder what everyone’s opinions might be on this?

It seems the discussion that originated with Graeme’s post about Trolling, has been resolved, fullstop!...........and it seems that alot more went on behind the scenes in muck throwing than anyone had originally realised- (who cares- they all make beautiful pictures)

I could not have known what actually happened.!!! (and probably glad I dont)... I perhaps would not have felt compelled to make this post in the first place….( I underestimated this issue would be so controversial- Im a quiet gal, a kind and gentle soul, I dont want to be apart of any contraversy)
I continue to feel strongly that things must be done with intergrity, that is the position I use whenever I deal with a n y o n e, even a person who is the giver of unflattering comments akin to being abusive.
Let me say in response to those comments, they are beautifully and poetically written and create a colourful imagery second to none…....

I agree I have no command over the english language, and I am the first one to realise that in my haste to type my thoughts at 90mph, I often mispell the simplest of words, typoe is my middle name behind creative. Jennifer is my first name and Heibloem my last.

Lets just let this all die a meaningless death now…..I believe this and any other issue of illreport will be capably dealt with by the Gods of the Bubbleworld whose judgments I value and have come to, in many instances admire.

I amend my original cry to say ALL HAIL THE CREATIVE SPIRIT, as long as noone else is hurt in the process.

Well said, Jienn. Now let’s get on with creating art and learning from each other. xx

PinkStinks,
They censored vibrator totem poles? That’s a shame, it would have been a cracker! I can picture it in my head. I think they could be a great parallel with some of the other giant phallus’ around.

thankyou Jienn,

I hope you didn’t get offended. The comment was intended to be ironic, in a tongue-in-cheek way. I just wanted to see if I could get a comment booed down and possibly even deleted in a journal entry about censorship.

The fact that there’s now a first amendment to the ALL HAIL THE CREATIVE SPIRIT mantra is a win for the slippery slope of censorship though, so it’s not all bad. :)

Sorry fleece, it’s a BOO from me because I found your initial comment to Jienn abusive, and find it strange that you should hope she didn’t find it offensive. We don’t want censorship in open discussions and the creative world, but we’d prefer common decency and respect towards others. Open discussion does not imply or encompass abuse, not in my understanding of the word “discussion”.

Further on that note though, fleece, I don’t think your comment should be censored in this context (in response to Jienn’s journal invitation for open discussion). It gives everyone a chance to see who and what people are about.

I agree with Wirligig.

You are a disgrace to the site fleece and a talentless hack anyhow. Someone probably should file a complaint….

War hun not necessary….and I wouldnt want that or be intiating any such thing in regard to fleece or anyone else here…..if i am that overly sensitive toward myself or my work that I go to nearest listener to winge publicly then in my book an injection of maturity is urgently needed…. a reality check if you like….. Fleece has explained thats good enough. Open discussion has progressed and been debated-
My original motive here was to challenge FOR open debate, the original young people involved with the Trolling incident have been singled out and to my understanding( limited as it is) its all resolved.

I Went along with my son and his girlfriend to a sushi restaurant where we eat the most delightful and amazingly affordable delicacies….In behind us and then seated right infront of us came four individuals dressed in black with face makeup like kiss but darker or more sinsiter looking , every orafice had multiple piercings, foot attire was chunky boots and most pieces of clothing were torn in more than one place and everyone of them wore all black…..my son who is a person of the younger generation…laughed and said emo’s and I raised my eyebrows and I admit felt repulsed…..strong word hey…. but yeah …inside of me arose a huge dilemma…..this dilemma was resolved when one of the scantiest dressed individuals spoke in the most refined of british accents…....and I near fell off the chair I was sitting on…...and I got a realitycheck…..
Now I am a size 22 – I been what todays society would call a fatchick all my life, well hey since I was 9 years old….with the media bombarding us with obesity threats and get thin campaigns and fat people changing their lives calling them the biggest losers…..here we have yet another societal example of the proverbial judging a book by its cover…..
perhaps I shouldnt have made part of this entry personal….. why did I feel repulsed by the emo’s ?(not being derogatory here)- we often have a conditioned response to difference….
but in a community expressly tailored to celebrating creativity and creative expression AND DIFFERENCE, making judgements especially in th internet medium of the written and visual in word and image to the point of censorship well IS this ADVISABLE-
tolerance and non censorship I hope wins hands down….
and with these feww lengthy remarks I end this…...
saying again thankyou all for your imput.

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