[l1|\|70|\| 7\|r33 KMA

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just keep picking those holes….. there are quite a few of them to be found methinks… ;)))
I have an ever-increasing suspicion that some of those who only saw in black and white before will be forced to admit there’s a fair bit of grey toning in between lol ;)))

Well said. Love the soundtrack too, btw. LOL

Yep… I read the original post and felt both pissed off and saddened…

If Peter doesn’t perceive Redbubble as both a Community and Family, then why should anyone else? I used to admin a large software/tech message board for five years, I’ve seen a lot of places crumble, fall and disintegrate due to those who manage them implementing a ‘hard-line, business’ type of approach… But not a humane approach.

I wouldn’t exactly call it the best promotion to offer alternative communities to members either… What’s that saying about his own webiste?

Maybe Peter got all fired up reading the never-ending tirade of messages and emails, and made his comment out of ‘human impulse’ on the spur of the moment, pretty much like any human being can react when placed under pressure… A simple, spontaneous mistake… Pretty much like Helen herself made in the heat of the moment.

From Management’s perspective, Helen was used as an example and scapegoat to show that nobody is immune to the hard-line approach they have ‘recently’, although inconsistently, decided to take, an approach not made clear to redbubble members… A simple miscommunication of information due to probably what is a heavy overload of other demands redbubble entails… Maintenance, marketing, etc etc

So obviously Management are now in the difficult position that if they were to back-track on the decision they made with Helen, they could be afraid of setting a dangerous precedence, those who actually agree with her being banned, will create an uproar, and her return could look like a complete lose of face for them.

I guess they have to weigh up the option of whether they believe it would be ‘easier’ to just wait and hope for things to die down insofar as the hasty, decision they made in banning Helen… Or face a whole new onslaught of turmoil from those who feel their decision was justified.

Not an easy position to be in…

So what if Management were to admit that perhaps they hadn’t communicated their policies and procedures clearly and had perhaps acted in haste?

How could they resolve this issue and maintain the respect of ALL members, not just those of us who are ‘batting’ for Helen’s return?

Easy.

Effective Managements who wish to continue a fruitful, lucrative and thriving Community, be it Art or otherwise, regularly do it.

Issue a statement that their have been concerns about the ‘new’, hard-line approach they have taken in recent months, state that perhaps, due to a massive amount of other committments and work they have in maintaining a website and community, they have not been clear about communicating their policies, procedures and guidelines to the community, reinstate those members whose accounts were deleted in the past month and write a CLEARLY defined policy as to what ‘They’ want their procedures for suspension and/or banning members to be, and yes I say ‘They’, for ultimately, redbubble DO manage this website and all of the associated costs and running of it that make it free for Members to use, state that now the guidelines have been clearly defined and any confusion has been alleviated, ALL guidelines and rules must be followed by redbubble members.

THIS is a measure that has been taken by many Administrators before, and it ensures the longevity and profitability of ANY community.

Or alternatively everyone could keep battling, fighting, arguing who’s right or wrong and holding on to their egos and pride, while the community gradually erodes and becomes yet another one of the many dead initiatives that exist on the world wide web.

But ultimately, the choice IS theirs, they pay the running costs of this website and invest an incredible amount of time keeping it online FREE for its members.

This should be respected.

Miscommunication can happen all of the time, it doesn’t have to blow up out of control when it can be resolved simply, give or take a little back-tracking and clarification.

On the subject of ‘Art’, not all Art is ‘happy art’ or ‘Fun’ to observe, art should evoke a range of feelings, which may often be confronting.

This is what helps great Art bring about constructive and positive change in society.

Responses to Art do, and should vary, though of course responses should focus on the Art work itself, and not on the Artist, and Artwork should never be censored because of this… Though of course, common sense should prevail as to what is Porn and what isn’t, there’s enough Porn sites available on the web to use as examples to clarify the issue.

Sorry for writing what appears to be a full-blown journal entry on your comment script clinton, remove it if you want to, I guess I’m just sick of all the non-constructive arguments that have been ongoing about this whole matter for some time now, even before helen’s dismissal.

I offer Redbubble Management a possible solution, one which would ensure harmony, longevity and of course profitability to their community.

I also suggest redbubble members calm down, give management some breathing time and space, and respect their decision… From there you can decide to either stay or go.

Everyone is feeling vulnerable, shocked and highly emotional about Helen’s dismissal, it brings home to us how what happened to her, could happen to either one of us… Without arbitration or discussion, and that’s a very scary thing to feel, when so many of us see Redbubble as being so much more than just ‘A Website’.

I will get off my soapbox now.

Notice how I even managed to keep my language clean and not utter one, single ‘Fuck’ word? ... Well almost… ;-)

Ciao 4 now
Jennifer B
xox

Fuck that was a long assed comment… Sorry Clinton! hahahaha. :-P

@JenniferB

Constructive, intelligent, full of EQ too.

Thank you!

Chris

Yes I agree that Peter did make a hasty, rash decision and said things in haste that he probably regretted, and have mentioned in my comment that this was comparable to Helen’s very impulsive comment, however I’m sure Peter has much more pressure on his plate running a website of this magnitude, (well… it’s large compared to the forum I used to administer! haha), than our concerns about Helen’s dismissal and what that could mean for us.

We could argue back and forth forever about the mistakes people make, we are after all, simply human… Or we could offer a truce and provide solutions.

People can, and do learn by their mistakes all of the time, and Redbubble is a continually growing project that I’m sure Peter and the rest of the management are learning how to manage more effectively day by day.

The difference is whether things can be solved in such a way that everyone can be appeased… In a way that ensures the longevity of both a ‘business’ and ‘community’, after all, I’m sure this is what we’d all want, irrespective of which side of the fence we sit on?

I wrote to Peter with my complaint over Helens’ account; also pointed out that my account was stripped of all its posts and I was suspended 18 months ago for complaining about a raceist remark made by a male moderator mate of Peters. Peters response 18 months after my complaint was to say do you want me to persue it….... I did then Peter, but I was writing in regard to Helens losing her account and the two faced attitude of RedBubble…. I have forwarded his Bubblemails on…

Oh… And finally, when or if Redbubble do decide to amend and clarify their Policies and Procedures, a set of rules for Moderators and Admins which can be clearly seen by the Members, tends to help alleviate any sense of dictatorship or unfairness too.

No point in dwelling on the mistakes people have made or rehashing old grievances…

jenn should run for political office… a level headed peacemaker who considers both side of the issue while being proud of her scandalous past….... ha…... but in all seriousness what jenn has said makes the most sense of the many many way to fuckin many posts i’ve read on this whole issue….. i’ve tried really hard to stay out of it as i come to rb to rejuvenate my artistic spirit.. not fight with folks who fight simply because they enjoy the drama…....or are so impassioned by their own sense of what is right that they aren’t capable of reasonable discussion…..........but i just HAD to step in here and give jenn a complimentary pat on the rump..err back…............

aww thanks butchart, but run for political office???? not likely! I’d rather run for the hills! hahaha! I just hate to see everyone fragmenting and forming sub-tribes around here, sometimes the noise gets so loud that the real injustices to be addressed become barely a whisper. Oh, and as you know, I can have my impulsive moments too, we are, after all, all only human! ;-)

As for the pat on the rump… Well I’m bending over… ;-P

In fact, they even pulled Helen’s daughter’s account yesterday! Which did get reinstated after protest…

Oh and ‘Clinton’ :-P
Have you checked Anne’s post about Helen’s sister’s account deletion? Check Peter’s reply on it, again it was a simple error due to the email address that was attached to it, but yes, while emotions are running high on all fronts, people are apt to jump to conclusions and staff who are feeling under pressure are more likely to make hasty, incorrect decisions.

I have no problem with Activists or Activism… Though it’s usually a last ditch attempt to bring about change, and generally if involves completely disintegrating a societal structure in order to achieve this, which would be pretty unfair to a lot of other redbubble members who are impartial or ignorant to the issues. Also, sometimes Activists can get very confrontational and put people on the defensive, causing divisions amongst groups that didn’t previously exist… I’d rather go for a constructive, diplomatic, EQ approach first, after that, given a little time, if no resolution has been made, people will simply vote with their feet, not quite as ‘exciting’ as creating anarchy, but a hell of a lot less messier to clean up afterwards. :-P

Well you’re entitled to your opinion on whether or not it was an error or ‘lame excuse’, but maybe if people gave others the benefit of the doubt or at least respected their stance, we could actually move forward in some way instead of backwards, afterall, wasn’t it disrespect and an inability to accept Helen’s stance on things, that created this problem in the first place? I’d rather focus on solutions, instead of personalising things, being confrontational, and wasting energy on the problems.

Erm, no. Activism is usually the FIRST attempt to effect change. It usually starts with constructive debate, which usually gets ignored, serially, so eventually people take direct action…

Constructive debate has been severely lacking throughout this entire ordeal… When people resort to name-calling, creating divisions, and attacking people for their points of view instead of focussing on the problems that need to be resolved, I hardly call that constructive, the messages that remain in the forum speak for themselves…

Okay, so I was wrong using the word ‘anarchy’, then shoot me. :-P

But I hardly see how creating divisions amongst people where they never previously existed to be constructive or positive.

Off-shoot divisions and sub-groups tend to draw attention towards themselves, but not to the issues at hand which need to be resolved, and I;m sure you’ve noticed that the more people have gotten confrontational, the more it has buried helen deeper and deeper into a hole.

Have any of the people wishing to ‘boycott’ even consulted Helen about this?

I know that she has stated she doesn’t want people to close their accounts and keep getting confrontational about the issue.

Sometimes respect for everyone flies out of the window when people get so caught up in the ‘fight’ that they become further removed from the Cause.

And I’m sorry if I sound confrontational, I really don’t intend to come across that way, I’m as passionate about seeking resolution and change as you, and everyone else is, perhaps this makes me come across as confrontational? I would just rather look at inclusive, approaches to making change, not ones that cause further divisions.

This whole scenario is really sad and unjust, on so many levels.

Am I creating division? Besides, division exists everywhere. To be human is to be a paradox of division and cohesion, because logically to be for something you have to be against it’s antithesis (the third option is to be in a persistent vegetative state- read that also as a metaphor).

The diplomacy involved here is resolving a conflict… not pretending a conflict doesn’t exist… or removing the conflict by removing one side of the conflict. No?

I’m totally cool, that people get to air their right wing views on here. I’m not cool with a situation where there are two sets of rules and a feeling that you could be predated by the site admins just because of your convictions.

As fr Helen’s wishes, well I’ll take them on board, but, you seem to have missed the point that so many people are angry not JUST because of Helen but because it could be easily any of us that are on the same wavelength as her.

How do you appease that?

It takes an exceptional character to defy human instinct and not become “confrontational” when you feel under attack. It’s the very reason we survived natural selection, so long.

Respect is earned not granted automatically. Politeness however is deserved until due reason is given to revoke it.

So we have a conflict where many people feel like prey or indirectly complicit because of what happened with Helen, you have site owners proclaiming irreversible decisions, and there is zero arbitration/dialogue now… where do you see this going and how would try to fix this?

Have you read THIS?

Of course I’m aware that there are wider implications to this other than helen’s dismissal, I’ve mentioned this in numerous places, and I’m aware that the wider implications are why people are feeling very volatile, vulnerable and under pressure… Including RB management I’m sure.

But nothing constructive can be achieved while emotions are running so hot and people are apt to say or do things impulsively, I just think that everyone needs a bit of breathing space and some time to digest it all.

Management haven’t even had time to digest all of the info, look into making any resolutions, particularly as they’ve been bombarded with a huge amount of aggressive, emotionally charged posts, comments, emails and bmails.

It would be unfair to take the same hard-line approach with them, as they have previously taken with their community, without giving them time to cool down and work on some form of communication and resolution.

Just as it would be unfair to expect members to make decisions they may later regret whilst they’re feeling vulnerable and hurt.

Has anyone attempted to write up some kind of possible resolution that sees things from all perspectives and appeases everyone to some extent? In a form that doesn’t put people on the defensive or demeans them of their authority?

Wouldn’t that be a form of constructive ‘debate’ prior to anything extreme taking place?

You are most likely right but:

1.) I’m not here to argue for management and against myself
2.) I have no idea what they have or haven’t been doing
3.) The longer the fire burns the hotter it will get
4.) One person’s ‘cooling down’ is another person’s ‘sweep it under the rug’ (!)

From my perspective there is only 1 satisfying outcome here:

1.) The reinstatement of Helen (preferably with at least a private apology)

2.) Clear guidelines that assure people that freedom of expression and conviction will be respected, but overstepping the mark will have consequences

3.) Those consequences will be a clear ‘Grievance Process’ as you would find in common employment law: an escalation from x-amounts of reprimands leading to x amount of periodic suspensions leading to permanent banning. In other words, letting people know what the rules are, so there is no feeling of being subject to summary and arbitrary decisions.

No?

Cue Monty Python: ”...three outcomes”

:-D

I agree completely with everything you’ve written with a slight amendment to number 1.

1.) Reinstatement of any member who has been dismissed from redbubble over the past month without prior consultation or notification. (or something like that?) As Peter himself has stated that they’ve taken a new, hard-line approach to zero tolerance over the past month, okay, if they want to be really ‘authorative’ (sp) about things, then this may just be the case, however, communication of such a ‘new approach’ was not made to the Community, or clearly outlined in Policy, prior to the dismissals taking place.

Harder still would be how to put your suggestions forward to Peter in such a way that his position as administrator is still respected… Even if that respect is simply due to the fact that he provides a Community, free of charge, for members to showcase their Art.

What’s Monty Python “three outcomes?” Is it kind of like 3 strikes and you’re out??? :-D

Agreed. But…

Well, there will be cases when you really just have to ban/sack people straight of the bat. Like if I turned up here and posted a lot of racist and homophobic stuff. Instant permanent ban would be fair enough.

People losing their temper in a debate is irrational as a cause for permanent exclusion. I have driven university professors to swear at me, I never complain, but if I had they wouldn’t have lost their jobs!

The punishment HAS to meet the crime.

And you can’t complain about people breaking teh law when there is non. Despotic extemporised rules aren’t a code of conduct.

If people don’t know HOW they are supposed to be behaving then it is not only mad to get angry about them MISbehaving it’s kind of abusive in a controlling sort of way.

They DON’T provide a service for free. They provide a service that is free if you want it, but they take a cut on sales, that isn’t “free”. Wikipedia is free. Indymedia is “free”, BBC website is “free”. RB is by definition commercial.

Personally, I think if the issue of a clear code of conduct and escalation process ahs gone over Peter’s head, he really should stay away from such matters.

Again, I’m not here to defend his face/pride/respect/. Sometimes, people need to just accept they got stuff wrong, and respect is earned precisely by people admitting the such- chiefly because it is such a difficult thing to do sometimes.

Anyway, when there are no parameters, no clearly waymarked paths, then don’t bitch when people stray into areas you don’t like.

Anyway, when there are no parameters, no clearly waymarked paths, then don’t bitch when people stray into areas you don’t like.

Hu??? what and to whom does that statement pertain to?

The things you’ve mentioned I agree with entirely, and I’m sure if they were worded in such a way so as not to put management on the defensive, they’d be reasonable enough to consider them too… Or at least I’d hope they would be, but nothing has really been worded or outlined in a reasonable way, so perhaps as a last ditch attempt you could draw up some kind of letter?

Then after at least a week for consideration, if there’s a definite negative response or an unwillingness to address the issues and make any changes at all, people will simply vote with their feet, or by boycotting, or whatever other means and measures they see fit to take.

Sometimes it isn’t about the way things are ‘worded’, but more in the way they are conveyed.

An open, positive and amicable approach would seem to be the most constructive one to take.

And THEN if it all falls flat…

Fuck it.

Oh fuck, you couldn’t get more removed from Gandhi if you tried!!!! I was looking at making a Positive approach, not an unrealistic one!!! :P

Awww… But I can’t write formal stuff, my spelling sucks, and my grammars even worse… You have the no how to do it… Draft one for me pretending your me then???? :))

I was serious, I’m shit at writing formal stuff and you’re great with words… I’m sure you could fake being diplomatic and amicable if you tried…
I even have to google the word inimitable, because I haven’t got a clue what it means! :)

It’s okay now thanks, I’ve found someone else who is diplomatically writing along similar lines that I wanted to write and who has been liaising with Peter. Hopefully all is not lost and we’ll hear something soon.