darkvampire

I wish you well, Anna.

Thank you for your comments, Elizium. I am glad that you are against the taking of innocent life. Nonetheless, your statement regarding “rape, incest, accident, poverty, and neglect” makes me wonder if you are suggesting that abortions should be performed in these cases. If this is what you are saying, then we are poles apart. Despite your words to the contrary, I believe this is a black and white matter. Regarding a baby being severely handicapped, would you agree that we have the right to kill born handicapped people, such as Hitler did? And if not, why not? It is hard to see why unborn people should have fewer rights than born people. Also, I find your implication that it may be acceptable to kill babies conceived “by accident” truly chilling. ( Perhaps I am misinterpreting your intention here? If so, I apologize and ask you to explain).

I am aware that there are many born children who need care and support, but that should never be used as an excuse for neglecting or harming those who have not yet seen daylight.

I do NOT support the killing of Dr Tiller or any other abortion doctor. Nevertheless, I have to point out, in the interests of accuracy and fairness, that the same charge of hypocrisy that you are levelling against the microscopically tiny number of people who kill doctors can be justly brought against those who grow hot with indignation at the death of Doctor Tiller, a man who is responsible for the murder of countless human beings; where were they when this slaughter was going on? Where was the indignation and sadness then? I repeat: I do NOT kill people( doctors or babies) and I do not support those who do; I am merely pointing out that hypocrisy works both ways.

Finally, you refer to our society allowing us to “make choices” but that is not the case at all: the unborn child is not allowed to choose to live. Our “democratic rights” matter little to him; he isn’t given any. The unborn child is now in a similar position to that of black slaves for centuries: he is regarded as less than human, and you can kill him with impunity.

The number of abortions due to rape AND incest(in USA) is apparently about 1%, though I take your point about covering up incest.

I strongly disagree; so does Cambridge Dictionaries Online and the Oxford. No-one should deny the great suffering caused by Hitler and the Nazis, but we are talking here of a holocaust of perhaps 50,000,000 children being tortured and murdered every year. That, indeed, is unique.

I am sorry too, but I do NOT deny the great suffering caused by the Nazis. What we are debating is simply the way words should be used. I am English and I speak and write English. According to several English dictionaries I have consulted the word “holocaust” does not just apply to what the Nazis did. Would you object to the common phrase “nuclear holocaust” ( first coined in 1926 I believe)? Perhaps what you are objecting to here is the capitalized form (“Holocaust” ). If so there is no problem as I did not mean to give it a capital. You will notice that the whole title is in capitals, so I am not referring to any other holocaust than the “abortion holocaust”. In a spirit of compromise I shall alter the title of this journal piece to “The silent holocaust”, without capitals.

I offered that compromise in a genuine spirit of friendliness. I am not aware of disrespecting you at all. I have merely pointed out to you what( according to the dictionary) this English word means, and I am using it in the dictionary sense. As for your statement about abortion, it’s not that the reasons for abortion are not known, it is that no-one has yet demonstrated why an unborn person may be murdered with impunity, whilst a born person may not..

Elizium, you raise some fascinating points. I respect the fact that you are extremely non-confrontational, always looking for some common ground.

I would like to consider with you one or two areas of interest you have mentioned.

Your passage from the beginning to “unloved children” I would agree with completely. I would disagree with your suggestion that it is a matter of personal choice. You are quite right, of course, in stating that we cannot ask a baby if she wants to be conceived, but that is plainly because you cannot ask a non-existent entity anything. If that prevented us from conceiving children the human race would die out. Once a person exists the matter is very different, and my point was that as a society we give everyone rights( in theory) except unborn people. To talk about choices when we are deliberately killing someone who already exists and has no choice seems to me illogical and wrong.

Regarding contraception and masturbation, I feel we must treat them separately.

Contraception: I have just read a fascinating article about the claimed connection between contraception and abortion: interesting but not proven. Most pro-lifers veer away from condemning contraception or even claiming that it contributes towards abortion as it tends to cloud the issue and gives ammunition to the pro-death lobby. Personally I avoid discussing contraception because I always feel like Nero fiddling while Rome burns…abortion is in my view the most urgent matter in the world that needs addressing NOW. Why be side-tracked? [ I must just remind myself that SOME forms of contraception are abortifacients and therefore are to be condemned]

Masturbation: I cannot agree with your suggestion that by masturbating you are killing thousands of potential human beings. That is like saying that by living a celibate life you are a murderer. Abortion kills real, living human beings, and that is why it is murder.

Regarding the poor woman who has been raped, this is a dreadful experience deserving of the utmost compassion, yet does it justify murder? Surely not.

I would like to ask you to consider this scenario: a woman has a two year old child. She is caught in an earthquake and is trapped in a large pipe. Her daughter is also trapped in the pipe. The air is running out for the mother, but not for the child. The only way to save the life of the mother is to bore a hole through the child, killing her. Is it morally justifiable deliberately to kill the child to save the mother? If you answer “No” then you have to demonstrate why it is morally acceptable to kill an UNBORN child.

I am not a cruel person, but I cannot accept that there are “grey areas” in this. Rather I would call them hard and difficult choices. But life is full of such choices.

It is always a pleasure to discuss things with you, Elizium. If only everyone was so calm in debate and free from anger and “bloody mindedness” discussions would be much more enjoyable.

Best wishes, darkvampire X

Elizium, Firstly, your response to my “pipe” scenario. I specifically stated that the air was running out “for the mother, not for the child”, so your take on it does not arise. I was trying to point out the inconsistency of taking a stance which assumes (without rational argument) that an unborn person is of less value than a born person.

Secondly, your example of the pregnant woman. An interesting article claiming that abortion is much more dangerous than childbirth can be found “here”:http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V8/n2/finland.html But I would not wish to rely on studies in a matter of principle, as they sometimes miss the point. I have to say I must find fault with your pregnancy scenario. You do not make clear what you mean by “possibly the baby will die”. This possibility always exists. Even if there is a strong possibility that the woman will die, that does not mean (just as in my “pipe” scenario) that it automatically follows that the woman has the right to murder her child. (It goes without saying that any decent human being must feel great sympathy with anyone trapped in a position of having to make these decisions).

Regarding euthanasia, my own opinion is that this is better discussed entirely apart from abortion. My reasons are these:

1) Euthanasia usually involves a rational, often adult human being, not a child in the womb unable to give assent.

2) It is more complicated than the relatively “black and white” of abortion. A distinction must be drawn between killing someone because their life has become inconvenient, and assisting the suicide of a rational adult person. I do not regard this matter as anywhere near as crucial as abortion, which involves the deliberate murder of little children without the possibility of their consent, and often for the most trivial of reasons.

I am not sure where your figure of 3% of pregnant women die in childbirth comes from. Do you mean in the world? If you mean in the USA or UK it sounds a bit steep to me.

Best wishes, darkvampire. X

Thank you for your kind comments about my art.

I must be honest and say that I find your views on abortion quite chilling. May I take your poiints in order?

1) I don’t know what you mean by “an unborn soul who has not yet come to life”. Philosophically, I would maintain that the only logical position is to regard the person in the womb as human from the first moment of conception.

2) I do not believe in reincarnation as you do; I do, however believe in an afterlife. To use this as an excuse for killing the unborn seems to me truly dreadful. To speak of “survival of the fittest” when it comes to a baby is, with respect, a position made notorious by certain fascist goups, and I am sure that you do not agree with them.

3)To suggest that a woman’s life is more important than that of her child because she is “socially contributing” is a horrifying concept.No babies are socially contributing so apparently we can kill them all!

4)To suggest that murdering babies is a morally acceptable choice, in order to limit population growth, is beyond belief. Why not kill old people? Or the mentally retarded? Do we have the right , as the Nazis did, to murder children with Down’s Syndrome because they are less fortunate than the rest of us??

5) At the risk of sounding patronizing, are you sure you have thought these matters through and seen the logical implications of what you have written? I would be interested to hear you continue to defend these positions in the light of what I have said. I have to say that I do regard abortion not just as evil, but as the greatest evil of our times.

Thank you again for praising my works, which I appreciate very much.