DID FAMOUS ARTISTS USE PHOTOGRAPHS?

Excellent journal entry. If I had the time I could add at least another 20 famous artists who painted from photographs.

Some which immediately come to mind are: Andy Warhol, Duchamp and of course, Francis Bacon)

Bacon preferred working in isolation, as do I. I regularly use photographic reference images. I used to clip images from magazines but now I’m fortunate in that people send me their photographs from all over the world to use in my work.

I’ve seen this question raised many times on other art sites and once read a remark posted by an influential art critic in the US…who said that, ”...it is usually just the amateurs and those with no idea what they’re talking about who endeavour to demonise the use of photographs in art.”

I’d also like to add that anyone who calls themselves an artist…who asserts that they have never copied anything ....is either a barefaced liar or a fool.

As a 4 year old, left to my own devices for the greater part of every day, I taught myself to draw by copying illustrations (and photographs) from my mother’s sewing pattern books.

Its part of who I am and why I am the way I am. There were long lonely hours spent gazing at the glamorous women in their beautiful clothes…..wondering who they were….where they were going.

I eventually outgrew copying from books, but I mention this to make the point….that we live in a world full of ideas. There is culture…music…art…film….fashion….current affairs…..everything….every other person we encounter…..nature…the elements…..

Of course there is inspiration all around us and I think its rather ridiculous of those who argue that its alright to look at everything….absorb and filter, deconstruct and reinterpret anything and everything…... but not photography.

BRILLIANT David just brilliant!
You have collated an excellent case here that should put paid to any criticism of the use of a tool such as a photograph for reference! It is just a sketch made by a tool … just not a sketch pencil/charcoal!
I think the people who wont allow art to be created however it is created want us still to live like cave dwellers & spit paint on our hands onto the rock roof! – & then they’d still find something to complain about! I believe that they are just jealous they didn’t think of it too!

The camera is a tool, the computer is a tool just like a pencil paintbrush or quill! Am I any less of a writer because I use a computer – and thus can correct my mistakes before it is seen by all?

Why don’t I hand write it and send it to a literary agent who then sends it to a publisher who hand balls it to a department where whatever person is free edits it and then sends it to a person to type it out who then sends it to the printer to create the backwards typeset who then prints it and sends it to a proof reader to pick up on the print errors who then sends it back to the printer to correct who then sends it back with whatever other errors detected etc and finally when there are no errors or minimal enough to ignore the first run of books is created and sent to the critics who then decide if it can be published for the general public! and then if it’s good enough someone types it into the computer to be archived!

Yet if I make furniture or throw a pot I cannot use electric tools! I throw the best pots on an old wooden kick-wheel from the 1800s and I create the best square, tight, dovetail joined, french polished, furniture with hand tools!

Get with the planet people and stop imposing your own decided standards and desires upon others! We all do things differently! and thus the results and the bit about “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder” creates the values!

I am with you – your art is stunning and whatever means you use to create it is justified by the beauty of it we all enjoy!
☼ B R A V O !!! ☼

[& how co-incidental that it just happens to enhance the explanation of Ekphrasis brilliantly too! lol]
Chookas! X♥X

I totally agree- we take our refrences where we can and certainly sometimes I do and sometimes I dont take from photos. Cool references you have added. I dont think there’s an argument to be had really xxxxx

Top job on the research Dave A+, tis a true story : )

I Soooo looooved the lightbox!!!!!
I would love to have one now!!! lol
BUT I found out that the PC Screen is a brilliant one!
You pull up a blank word page tape your pic to the screen then your blank paper over that and voila!!! lol – see a TOOL!!!! lol
no rulers erasers etc … they truely are in the parchment & charcoal world! lol
Love your work sweetman! X♥X
Chookas! X♥X

LOL I LOVE HUMBUGS!!! lol
especially peppermint ones!!!
I have even made them! lol
red and white stripes or green and white or …. lol
the liccorice ones were interesting! lol
Chookas … uuuummm …. hunnybee lol
Yes I love honey too! lol X♥X

Excellent find Dave! I haven’t seen these before.

I have just read your article above as I have just found it when I went back through my pages of activity over the last few hours. I have to say I totally agree with you. I believe many artists won’t admit to using photos when they do and many will admit to using them. I have to say though that I think it can be fairly obvious when looking at a painting whether a photo has been used or not. When executing a drawing as a finished piece, I like to work from the real thing but when executing a painting I will almost always use a photo reference unless I’m creating a pattern or an abstract. And I see you too are familiar with the use of ‘Camera Obscura’ by the Great Masters. Well as I said in my previous article, if it’s OK by Leonardo, it’s OK by me. At the end of the day the artist is copying an image anyway, whether it’s from real or from a photo, it’s still a copy. One artist isn’t more of an artist than another just because he doesn’t use a photo. And the artist can interpret whatever way he likes. Every artist has the freedom to chose their own style, medium, theme, subject matter and method. At the end of the day if the artist produces a piece of work that he is proud of and that brings aesthetic pleasure to others, then that’s a great piece of art and something to be proud of. :)

Bye the way Dave, I’d love to know where you found all those wonderful image references above. Are they all from the same website or book ?

Cheers,
Orla :)

an awesome journal entry!! Certain artworks I have done do actually come from my mind, BUUUUTTTTT… I absolutely, at times, do use photos for references in the creation of my work. Thanks, Dave!!

Whatever the muse the result must be occupation of the mind like yourself it is about my imagination running rampant I personally can’t copy so it is just the lines photography is a means to make it more effective for us Getting ones partner to stay still long enough is so difficult capturing that exact moment where the emotion is right or multi facited is so much easier when you have access to a camera it is all art as long as we express.

thanks for giving me something to think about while waiting for the muse to kick in
Much abundance to you dear man

Well said Dave. I sometimes use photos and have also painted from real life, but my daughter has provided me with some beautiful landscape photos of Australia…I see no problem using them and you still have to have the talent to reproduce that image with the implement you are using.

There may be a particular landscape or object a person wants to paint and how on earth can you set up an easel and paint on a windy, rainy day..or paint a portrait painting of a wriggly baby or animal…etc etc? thus the camera comes in handy to capture the moment to produce a piece of art at your convenience. In this day and age of technology are there not numerous pieces of art created digitally, colours altered and manipulated. Whether you are making an imprint in your mind of what you are seeing or pressing a button to capture the image before painting it does not matter….. it is the imagination and talent of that person flowing through to the brush or tool you are using that is producing fine works of art for others to enjoy.

I’ll be a gentleman and not say who scolded me for using photographs; in case you know the person :)

Probably one of the same twits I’ve encountered since joining this site. I have neither the time nor inclination to reply to anyone’s uneducated bleatings anymore.

Study art history and you will discover that the camera has long been a tool for the artist

I use a reference photograph for almost everything I do (not so much my abstract work LOL). I am not a “full-time artist” (I once asked a local artist if she painted full-time and received a horrified glance and the response “I have NEVER been a HOBBYIST!” geez, get over yourself lovey….thats another debate however), I work full time, 40 hours a week, so no way can I find the time to paint “en plein air”, and keep going back to a scene day after day to get lighting and shadows right, or what have you. I often paint at night, so a reference photograph is essential. Sometimes I trace my work to give a foundation from the photograph, and many artists I know use an overhead projector to project onto large canvases (often wish I had one of those)
My grandfather was a somewhat famous artist, and although in his early days, using a camera was expensive, by the 1960’s, he used a lot of reference photos. (Having said that he did still paint his landscapes on sight often)
And go figure, he did all his later under-sketches on his oils in TEXTA. As many have said above, a camera is a tool like any other.
I say “YAY” for the camera, I LOVE it, it allows me to produce a lot more works, allowing to get more of my ideas down on paper or canvas instead of buzzing around inside my head desperate to escape!!!

I love the conversation and totally agree Dave. You did a good job on your research. I also use photographs when I need to and computing and the rest of my creations come out of my overactive brain. Photographs are a great jumping board for ideas.

This is SUCH an interesting debate. Thanks Dave for putting the cat amongst the pigeons! In my opinion of course it is legitimate to use photographs as a reference. It’s called ‘progress’. I’m sure any of the very very Old Masters would have been happy to use photographs had they been available at the time. I do like the comparison above of using pencils to write an article as opposed to using a computer. For me personally, my ideal situation is to start a painting on site or with the subject in front of me, make colour notes and finish it off later from photographic reference. I like to take my own photos rather than working from someone elses, but that’s just me. (Having said that, I have recently asked another artist on RedBubble if I could have a go at painting from one of his photos, so I’ve just made a liar out of myself – but I haven’t done the painting yet)!

When I first got back into art I never even thought of using photos and would sit at my chosen spot, returning to it at the same time some other day when the light was similar until the painting was finished. Then I saw another artist using a photo and thought it was a great idea and wondered why I hadn’t I thought of it myself!!! In my artistic life I have done a lot of ‘plein airing’ and I also work from photos. Of course life drawing is done from ‘life’. I have also never used photos when doing a ‘still life’ and have always set the articles up in my studio. I have actually had this idea in my head for awhile to write a journal entry entitled ‘The Perils of Plein Aire’. Over the years I have lost half a box of pastels in the middle of a paddock whilst fleeing from a tribe of inquisitive cattle! Another time I was sitting beside a creek deep in thought and scribbling away with my pastels, totally on the ‘right side’ of my brain, when I felt hot breath on the back of my neck! I turned to find a very unattractive and amorous looking donkey gazing at me lovingly, and once again a whole box full of pastels were thrown up in the air! I have had a similar experience with a very amorous male of the human species when painting in a fairly isolated spot, and I can’t tell you how scary that was!!!! I have inadvertently raised the angst of nesting magpies having wandered into their territory. I have been eaten alive by mosquitoes and stung by ants! I have been on a roadside above a beach location and heard strange clicking noises behind me, only to find that a busload of tourists had stopped and I was their photo opportunity! Talk about embarrassing! I do find it very intimidating to have people looking over my shoulder! However, nothing can compare with going on a camping trip with my husband, and taking the easel and pastels and drawing on site. I still take the camera though. Having said all that, I think most artists would agree that it is far more comfortable to work in the comfort of your own home or studio from photographs!!! Whatever way we choose to make art is acceptable. It is the end result that tells the story.

Re. Adgray’s comments above – excellently put. Using a camera as a tool like a paintbrush as a tool. I so agree with how you compare the idea of using a computer as a tool to write an article as against using a pencil with the idea of using a photo to execute a painting as against working from real. You’ve hit the nail on the head there.

And re. the lightbox idea. You could always take a colour photocopy of your image and stick it onto a window (if your photo paper is too thick for the light to shine through), then stick a blank sheet of paper over it if you need to trace something.

And for anyone who’s not sure or very confident about how to draw from the photo……….if you want to copy an image from a small photo onto a big canvas, draw a grid on your photo (or use sewing thread as grid lines if you want to preserve the photo) then draw light grid lines with pencil on your canvas using the same ratio as that from the photo grid. Then just draw from square to square onto your canvas until your picture is complete. A large canvas can be quite daunting so this is a good way for one to build up the confidence of drawing. Another method if not using gridlines…one I like to use is to use the length of your pencil to visualise from a distance the positioning and size of each main area of the image, for example…a large triangular area, a square area..build up the composition using a series of large graphic shape areas then when you are happy with the placement, you can draw in the objects in more detail. (For instance: a tall glass will be a long rectangle…and assess with your pencil length, is it twice of three times as long as the width? is it a third of the way across the photo? halfway up?, a short glass will most likely be a square, an apple will be a circle, is it as wide as the glass and so on?...then when you are pleased with the size and placement of all of these graphic shapes…you can start to draw in the objects)
Orla :)

Sitting outside, in our climate!! A photograph which has been taken by the artist, when the image required can be obtained with the use of a zoom lens is a perfect tool and all the artist’s own work. Trust in your own integrity – it’s the result that matters.
Shirley

Excellent report. Eye – opener. I’m gonna pass this one on to my other half to look at…..

wow, so interesting to see these old photos and famous paintings, so the old masters were just like us average people!

for an artist to deny using any sort of reference is absurd to me… no one has a perfect memory. i use tons of photos, i collage images and i create new objects from multiple photos. look at chuck close’s work… he focuses in on each single pixel of a photo just to get it as real as he can….
photos rule!

all good dave.. You’ve had this discussion before..and you seem very defensive about it all to me..look if you want to use photos ..all good..If they are your OWN photos..no worries..that’s not copying anyone elses work ..that’s fine!

but there are those artists that never use photographs..and never lie about it either..so you have to accept that as well..OK..

I don’t use photographs to paint from ..never have. and I have.never felt the need to do that ..all my work comes up from my imagination..sorry if that offends anyone.. I paint the pictures in my head..and I don’t have a photographic memory..most of my stuff is not from real life..but from my thoughts and dreams..and I’ve never met the people in my paintings..I can be inspired by life.. but that’s it!
so to the person who said that artists who say that they don’t use photographas are lying ..well I take a bit of offence to that..because I don’t use photos and that’s not a sin either.

xxxooo

Hi Dave..all good..and no I don’t oppose using photos..no way ..I meant if you had the permission of the artist of course…because to me that’s someone elses work.
If they allow it ..then there is no problem.. that’s totally between the 2 people involved..all Ok there..

but I do wonder this..sorry I can’t help but wonder and we’ve already discussed this in the past
(and there isn’t a lot of judgement here..becaue I’m not the judge and jury OK )

but…. while you might adnire it and want to be inspired by someone elses photo
it just makes me wonder why you can’ tbe just as inspired if not more so.. by your own photos..then you are making the finished work totally your own….I think it’s a great
thing to try and develop your very own individual and unique style ..because we are developing our souls that way..

and you do have a unique style dave..no worries there I’ve seen some unique work coming out of you ….so that’s all I was trying to say ..If you collaborate with the photographer to use their work and they are in agreement..then there is no issue with that one..I’m notgoing to argue on that at all..!!!

but I always thought that making art was about expressing what was inside you and then sharing that expression with others like an extension of your soul.. to me making art is about showing glimpses of your very own soul..and that it’s not really about what’s inside someone else head or heart.. or soul.. but that’s just my viewpoint..
..and I could be wrong about that ..of course….I don’t really know..

To me Art is an epression of the persons views on life and what they see and feel as they go through the daily rounds..sometimes life can be very mundane..but we can even turn that to an advantage and put that into some form of art ..that tells a great story on the simple things in life..hha!!! ..but when I think about it ..I guess people can share their souls..and it might be twice the fun…hha!!!..so I won’t judge on that one dave..

and it wasn’t you who said that people are lying or fools if they say they don’t use photos..it was one of your friends up there. in the comments and I’m sorry I don’t want to fight about this.. but I did take a bit of offence to that because I don’t use photos to paint..not even my own ones..but then again I’m a bad photographer ..hhha!!!

..but I will let all this go now..and each to their own way ..their own style etc..
I like a lot of what you do..we’ve discussed this before..but I also noticed that without really knowing it ..the ones that I liked the best ..were ones that came straight from your own heart and soul ..without other peoples work involved. ..I might have liked a few that were taken from photos and the like..but I thought the best were the ones you did ..anyway that’s all OK’‘
I’m not here to fight about peoples photos or art or anything at all …you and me have talked about all of this before..so we should let it all go now..
and to finish ..I think your a great guy..a good man with a lot of heart ..and you share a lot of yourself..so well done dave.
I’m glad we met in here and glad to call you a friend…
and I know you would feel the same way.
peace and love to all of us..and happy painting
and drawing and photographing everyone!!!

xxxoooo

theres no rules in art

Fabulous references… and may i say – in every one the painting had more life, energy and spirit than the photo! A photo is a snap shot, a painting is the essence.

Yes I saw this one of yours dave..and I’m sure I commented on how I thought it was a beauty .
I really do think it holds a lot of Interest and is done so well!..good on you!
you have lots of beaut paintings and drawings with your own individual style and stamp of your own souls work on them..many good ones!! ...no worries there

Thanks for the lovely response to my comment in here and to my flowers too .All good!.
and I’m so glad that even you are starting to question why you should even use other peoples photos.. when you have so much inside yourself to express..that’s your soul telling you that it’s completely unneccessary! and that your own souls work is screaming to be heard..
it’s going to take us all a lifetime dave to complete our own souls work…and wish to fulfill and express itself to the fullest ..it’s an ongoing project…
think of copying anything- as just a lesson along the way.. and then leave it alone
It’s not worth the time or energy.

and your friend is right and I always say that too ..there are no rules in Art !

except one.. of course..and to me ,that’s do your own work.. and don’t copy anyone elses work..
art is about the artists views and expression about life ..not someone elses..
Art is an expression of the individuals soul ..and wanting to share that ..It’s not about copying anyone elses work ..no matter who they are or what they painted.. no matter how famous they are or were..they became famous not through copying ..but because they allowed themselves to express what was inside..even if other people laughed at them at first..they were unafraid..
and continued to paint and draw in their own style and way.

To me someone who copies is only showing that they are a good copy artist..it doesn’t tell me anything about the artist and what’s in their heart , mind or soul.
To me even copying from another persons photo without their approval..is just copying someone elses view on life and subject..there is no point to it..different of course if the photographer wants you too..or you collaborate on something ..that’s all a different kettle of fish then…because it then becomes an artistic project between 2 people…in agreement.

keep up the dave edwards style..there are gems and jewels there..and a lot of good energy and lot of dave edwards heart and soul shining through.

much love

from cathy

xxxooo

xxxoooo

Thanks for starting this debate, an excellent article. I rarely use photographs, much preferring to use a live model. I don’t say that using them is wrong – as you can see, artists have used them for years, but often as a supplement, ie, they will start out using a live model, then finish off using their photograph as reference. You can’t move around the form from a photograph, and it is hard to get an understanding of anatomy from a photo. I feel that artists who trace photos, or project them are starving themselves of acquiring drawing skills. Or will this become a thing of the past?
It’s also easy to miss out on subtleties of colours using just a photo, and things like reflected colour. And I believe it’s harder to respond emotionally to a 2 dimensional image.
Just my two bob’s worth! Cheers.

Interesting article in the Guardian..

Was Caravaggio the first photographer?

What Roz says above is true IF depicting form, anatomy, colours etc., as accurately as possible is the artist’s aim.

I appreciate that it may be harder for some people (many people? most people?) to respond emotionally to a 2 dimensional image, i.e. a photograph…as opposed to a flesh and blood person sitting in front of them….....but not for me. I will take a photograph I can study in solitude over a live subject anytime.

For me, staring intently at a photograph for hours on end…with no interruptions and no one yakking…..the only sound coming from my headphones while I listen to a particular song I have chosen to get me in a particular frame of mind…....is all I need…..and I don’t need to know what the back of his head looks like to know that he did indeed have a back to his head.

“he” being Vincent van Gogh :-p

And what of historical portraits? How would artists be expected to paint significant historical figures without referring to photographs? Of course before cameras were invented, painters would draw mainly from imagination…creating portraits which reflected their own skewed view of the world. For one example…. the proliferation of paintings depicting a light-skinned, blue-eyed Jesus.

Above is a photo of artist Alton Tobey working on one of six murals for the MacArthur Memorial in Norfolk, VA. Tobey painted a total of 52 portraits from photographs of all the people who were aboard the vessel at the time. Photo: American Artist, May 1976.

Excellent article on Art News Blog – Painting from Photographs

Although stories abounded about Rousseau’s supposed military adventures in the jungles of Mexico, he never actually left France. Instead, the exotic scenes he depicted were largely based on the foliage and animals he saw on his regular pilgrimages to the Paris Natural History Museum, and to the botanical gardens and zoo, known as the Jardin des Plantes, that surrounded it. Rousseau was also an eager scavenger of images from a variety of printed sources, which he adapted and transformed in his paintings. Perhaps his most important source was an album entitled Bêtes Sauvages (‘Wild Beasts’), which included around 200 photographs of animals in captivity, many of them in the Jardin des Plantes.

Diorama of a lion attacking an antelope
Collection Museum National Histoire Naturelle.

Henri Rousseau The Hungry Lion Throws itself on the Antelope 1905

source: Henri Rousseau – Inspiration

You’ve invested a tremendous amount of time, research and energy into this extraordinary journal, it is absolutely amazing!! This page is a good read, I very much enjoy it, and the wonderfully informative comments are a rich contribution as well!! Mahalo nui, thank you so much!! Please submit this journal and your beautiful works to Dimensions and Impressionist Art

I wish you a sparkling day! Aloha e Malama pono,

Sharon

Please try again. I had the ‘Writing’ turned off in the settings and have now changed the settings for submissions of two entries per member. Mahalo nui, thank you so much. I wish you a sparkling day!

Interesting.
While paining, no
while designing, yes
while I was in school, most certainly

Aloha Dave, you’re in!!
Mahalo nui for submitting your journal to both of the groups. I wish you a successful day!

“a damp squib” ...... you are too funny!

A very interesting read. I often use photos as a reference for my work, mostly because my pieces are based on people/things that I’ve not seen in real life. I do sometimes try to make pictures look photo-real, not often though – so time-consuming and I normally don’t have enough patience! I see nothing with using a photo to gain some sense of accuracy before letting the imagination take over. Some people argue that using a photo stops the originality of a picture, but I think it really depends on what the artist does. If an artist doesn’t have a source to work from, and has no idea what the thing they’re depicting acutually looks like, it can go horribly wrong. I recently read an article that might be of some interest. It isn’t abou using a photo as a reference point, but I think it reinforces my point that a depiction done straight from the imagination may not look anything like the thing it is meant to be based on. Anyway, before I start rambling about ukeleles and bicycle bells, let me just say that I agree with you. =]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7936629.stm

All I can say is that when art is concerned, there are no rules.
I use reference photos always, and I have had much praise on my work.
I do hold a certain amount of envy for those who can create something purely from thier imaginations, but they are a different type of artist. There is no restrictions or tabboo regarding art in my opinion, Some i love, some I hate, but that is only my opinion, and that’s what makes the world so versatile – the vast array of individuality.

Aloha Dave!
Congratulations on your feature in Dimensions

I think that so long as you are honest about what you do, ten it doesn’t matter if you use photographs or not. After all, as you said… artists have been using camera obscuras for ages. before they used them, there was no realistic portrayal of true perspective.

I use photographs. I take the photos and then paint them by hand with acrylic water-based paints.

I think that so long as you are honest about what you do, ten it doesn’t matter if you use photographs or not. After all, as you said… artists have been using camera obscuras for ages. before they used them, there was no realistic portrayal of true perspective.

I use photographs. I take the photos and then paint them by hand with acrylic water-based paints.

I should came back and read all the comments some time
great journal. I believe there was even read something about the Venetian scenes of Canaletto being done from a camera device

The real skill is giving life to a photo by painting it! Getting the basic gist of an image, and imbuing it with a soul. See my gallery for such examples!!!!!!!!!

Just as valid and probably more so, than a real life subject.

Great to hear that, Dave. Thank you.

Hey Dave, I don’t need to tell you whch side of the fence I’m on :-))) As you know, I usually post my reference alongside my drawings.

Great thread Dave – and obviously inspired many a reply….
.
What I want to know is:
How many photographers out there take photographs inspired by paintings and drawings?
Better yet, would they openly admit to it? ;)

Excellent notation and observations. Where did the stupid question come from where people ask you if you painted your artwork “from memory”? How can you paint what you can’t see? I’ve never met an artist yet who has created a work without some kind of inspiration or reference, e.g. live model, actual scene or dare I say it a “photograph”. No matter the inspiration or reference for the work, the artist always generally tends to make ithe work his or her own creation Of course you can paint an abstract from your mind or memory. That is a different kettle of fish altogether, and yes it is Art. To me, an artist is a person who conveys a vision, an experience, a thought, an idea, or a feeling via their artworks. There are so many different types of art these days (as evidenced on this site), and they ARE all “Art”. Blessed be the artist, no matter which form he or she chooses to take. :))))))

I am a little self-conscious painting en plein air so use a photo as a reference. As for painting direct from photo or from computer screen, one must take into account the relative differences and limitations. Like you, Dave, I use my imagination to counteract the deficiencies of the alternate media