AndyReeve

Pete Chennell, 5 months ago

bravo Andy!..couldnt agree more

Meach, 5 months ago

Thanks Hun.
I agree with all you’ve said my good friend though apologies for making you lose your seating on occasion!
I always help people out with advice or technical bits and pieces where I can – horizon straightening being the most common – and I find that most people would prefer a Bubblemail to being criticised (even in a constructive way) in the comments. That’s the drawback to forums – you have no eye contact and know wat of knowing if a person has arrived in the Bubble floating on a cloud of love and pasties or stomped in after a bad night.

Anthony Hedger, 5 months ago

Way to go Andy, Alright Maid, are ya

Plukie, 5 months ago

Now. look ‘ere my lover, I comes from Plymuff see and we talks a bit like you as well! Obviously, it’s easier to talk it than type it. lol. Anyway, I see what you are saying and to a certain degree I agree with you, but in the true spirit of Red Bubble, if everybody put up only the work they are proud of….then, it can be shattering if someone comes along and say “Nice, BUT…....” I understand that you are talking about “helpful” comments, but don’t forget, it’s words on a screen and people can read the same sentence in several different ways and you can bet your last pasty, that someone, somewhere will take it the wrong way.

Christopher E..., 5 months ago

andy i totally agree on helping someone out, if you feel it is needed, however leaving it in the “comments” i dont agree, can bubblemail that person
like i stated on glenn’s journal about leaving …tips on the comments,
if a buyer sees a shot, they totally love it, looks flawless to them, well they of course will read the comments
well they start seeing, well you could do this, or this should have been done. the thought of doubt enters into their head, then they rethink the very piece they felt was flawless before they read the comments, and ends up not buying the piece
im all for helping someone and vice versa, but , since anyone can read the comments, id prefer that any..fix it tips, be in private
and we all have room for improvement!! all of us! after all that is how we grow and improve on our work
now what does get to me sometimes..are the repetitive words..they use the same word on all the comments made
i would think if a piece of work inspired you to leave a comment, you can come up with something more in WHY that moved you to comment..make sense?
i know i have contacted a few friends, if i see a shot and said..hey…maybe for next shot..can try this
i dont use PS, dont want PS advice..and i dont give PS advice
if you’re going to help me, help me with the camera, that is my tool, not PS
so when i suggest things..i suggest settings on camera, not ..how to fix on PS
but thats the purist in me :)

Richard Veal, 5 months ago

Very well said Andy. I am all in favour of what has been suggested. I am not just here to sell my work, I am here to learn as well.

AndyReeve, 5 months ago

Good discussion commensing here – thank you. Both sides of the coin here and leaning towards the use of bubble mail when offering a helping hand.

I am going to let it roll for a bit then make another journal entry with the results.

Watch this space.

(Meach you crack me up (Thanx Hun) Tony – not sure about maid. hehehehe).

Phil Whiting, 5 months ago

Andy, I teach giving ‘feedback’ as a career ( not in photography, mind) There are ways to do it.
firstly the person must be a willing recipient, i.e. have said on their blurb, please offer constructve critism etc.
Secondly, you mustn’t make judgements, i.e. that’s cr*p etc. will offend people.
Lastly the feedback must be based around data, i.e the horizon isn’t level; or if it’s your personal opinion it should be quantified as so, ’ I think the image would benefit from a closer crop”

I do take on board the comments about trying to sell work however, so maybe bubblemail is the way to go, although I would benefit from reading criticism of others photo’s.

I have asked in my blurb for feedback about my images and all I have is positive remarks, which although encouraging do not help me develop. Is there a group that has set its purpose to offer constructive criticism, and help photogrphers develop? That may be a way forward.

Anyway I’ll finish here, as I’m off to check all Andys horizons, cropping, and exposures, and be as constructive as I possibly can!

JustCards, 5 months ago

:-) Thank you. Informative and fun read

richiedean, 5 months ago

It has to be bubble mail … if at all .. As the powers that be say ….. it can all get out of hand if shown in the comments box …...

lensman, 5 months ago

Good evening guys,
Having just trawled through the journal and replies, I would like to put in my two penn’orth.
I can only agree that, some fellow Bubblers offer just single word (and sometimes single syllable) and as far as PS is concerned, I can readily confess to being quite confounded by the Elements 3 that I have.
If I don’t like a photograph, I have decided that I simply won’t comment on it. If I do like a pic, I try to be brief, but just occasionally, I try to offer constructive criticism (and in turn, have to readily accept other’s critique of my pics).
As we are all aware, next to the comments box are the words “Please play nice”, which I have come to translate as ‘You slap my back, I’ll slap yours’ and that any sort of criticism, good, bad or indifferent’ has to be taken with the proverbial pinch of salt.

If I’m in any doubt as to how my criticism may be perceived, then I’ll send a bubblemail.

Hope that sets the record straight.

Karen Gough, 5 months ago

I agree with Christopher – while constructive criticism can be very helpful, I don’t feel that the comments box is the place for it. Why should potential buyers – or just other viewers – be put off by another’s opinion of a piece, particularly when photography, like any other artform, is such a subjective medium?
By all means, offer advice if you feel it is warranted and if you feel that you are in a position to do so, but be tactful – people are sensitive and have a right to feel protective of anything that they were brave enough to upload in the first place.

margo, 5 months ago

This is a great thread Andy and to the point. I agree that constructive criticisms are best made via Bubblemail, BUT it would be helpful to many of us if there was a place on RB where we could learn from critiques on others’ work. I sometimes think it would be useful to have a series of buttons across the page where viewers could just press words like GREAT or WELL DONE or other such comments and have them counted. A quick registration of say GREAT = 200 hits might satisfy both the sender and receiver and save us from having to peruse pages of such comments. Oh yes, and a THANK YOU ALL button instead of a reply to each. Comment if there is something to say about the image or added information relating to it. I share lensman’s sentiments.

lance leopold, 5 months ago

Only offer help if the artist asks for it,then only by bubblemail,that’s my position on the matter,Andy.

Alison Johnston, 5 months ago

Hi Andy,

Couldn’t agree with you more. I’ve spoken to someone via bubblemail about this very subject and she emailed RB and asked if they could put a limit of 2 uploads per day per person, so that only the artists best works were displayed. In my mind, if a person uploads 6 to 10 images per day they are using RB as a photo storage facility.

I have also braved the road of adding some constructive criticism to a couple of posts, but I don’t think that it went down very well. I look at artwork from a buyers point of view, I’m not going to buy a landscape that has a horizon line similar to the deck of the Titanic as she was going down – I’m not going to buy a ‘flat’ photo either.

If someone, other than a member of RB, is looking through the site with the idea of purchasing an artwork then the comments shouldn’t be visible.

Alison

Alison Johnston in reply to Christopher Ewing’s comment, 5 months ago

I dont use PS, dont want PS advice..and i dont give PS advice
if you’re going to help me, help me with the camera, that is my tool, not PS
so when i suggest things..i suggest settings on camera, not ..how to fix on PS
but thats the purist in me :)

Didst thou never play in the wet darkroom Christopher ? All the big guns of days gone by fudged around with their images. Photoshop, or any other image editing software is simply a darkroom, albeit a digital one. Sometimes there simply isn’t the time to bother with setting ones camera to get that magical shot.

Go listen to what world renowned photographer Jeff Schewe has to say on the subject.

Jeff Schewe Interview

Christopher E... in reply to Alison Johnston’s comment, 5 months ago

nope i didnt, and each person has their own opinion about it, and mine is to not use a program on my work, if i cant get it right in the camera..its deleted or kept on my computer as a “memorable experience”

Alison Johnston in reply to Christopher Ewing’s comment, 5 months ago

Hi Christopher,

That would then be your ‘preferred workflow’ and absolutely nothing to do with being a purist. A purist simply does not exist.

Something to remember about cameras, in a previous post you said if you’re going to help me, help me with the camera, that is my tool cameras are limited to what they can do. Did you watch the interview I posted ?

Image manipulation has been going on centuries, from tinting to hand toning, in the darkroom itself, using filters on the front end, using pre set filters inside the digital camera etc.,

To get that WOW image that all of us gaze at, from the likes of Adams to Schewe one has to go beyond thinking along the lines of ‘purist’.

I’m probably a little peeved that you use the term ‘purist’, instead of ‘preferred workflow’ and if you do prefer that way of working, great, go for.

I’m not trying to upset you here Christopher, or start a fight but learning a little about the history of photography and the photographers themselves will improve your own photographic experience out of sight.

Pagly2, 5 months ago

Having sat anf gone through the comments here..I am left ‘wondering’..????
I am not an Artist or Photographer…....but a Poet/Wtriter… your comments Andy to me infer that unless we are….. we should not comment at all…....? when I comment it is because a picture.artwork has ‘spoken’ to me…and I comment on what it said…...or what I saw…...and so what you get from me is Truth…I do not need to ‘suck up’ and as I am not “Arty” ..will not flavour my comments with “Arty” words…..that mean nothing…..
I have always believed that ALL the artwork/Photographs that are posted are the artists best works….......ie..best at that particular moment…...the very next one will then be the best…..............as for commenting on wether a ‘horizon’ was level or not…....Surely that is for the Artist to decide…............and to me the ‘little’ things like that are what make the picture…...............what we ‘See’ is what the artist ‘saw’.........who are we to question that…...but then as I am not an artist perhaps I am not in a position to say that…..
When I visit an art gallery I do not like Everything I see there…..some ‘pieces I have seen
to me are just downright pornographic…..but I am told it is “ART”..........distorted faces
...bodies..etc are not to my taste…but then I am just one person and these same pieces are to others Beautiful…........then again I do enjoy some abstract art…....and try explaining that to grandchildren…......
My final reply to you is…...any critism should be done in PRIVATE…..and be Constructive…..............but please do not put us “UN Arty” people out the door because
we sometimes have trouble finding the right words to explain just what we think of a given piece….......and cannot ‘flower ’ with arty comments…..
From me you will always get what I feel about a piece…and if I do not like it..then Simple…....I just do not comment at all…......
one final comment….Moderators should also understand that they do not have the right to delete comments made simly because they brought a little levity..and NOT rude…abusive… or offensive…...but simply because the Moderator was maybe just a little ‘jealous ??’..............the comments I refer to were from me and the person sent to
both were deleted and NO the reciever did not delete them….....

Christopher E... in reply to Alison Johnston’s comment, 5 months ago

well concidering 98% of my work on this site, is untouched by any program, shot from camera, loaded to computer, and then uploaded here, or printed…i concider myself a purist, i know ive been called it umpteen times before…lol
not knocking those who use a program, ive seen some remarkable work, ive also seen some overdone work
so..ill learn the settings on my camera…n make it work from there :) it works for me..and im happy with it :)
at least i dont have in the back of my mind…oh..i can fix this later :)

Alison Johnston in reply to Pagly2’s comment, 5 months ago

I view every image as if I were going to purchase it. My thoughts go ‘would I buy this, if not, why not?’

If the photographer saw a sloping horizon line, s/he does’t live on the same planet I do.

I image that artists put their work here to sell, making it more saleable would be a priority …. I would have thought so anyway.

Saying that an image is nice, pretty etc., isn’t constructive from a photographers point of view and no one is saying that people can’t write those comments – what Andy is saying – is that when those comments are posted to an image with obvious light leaks, under or over exposure, sloping horizon lines, out of focus, flat images then there is nothing there to help the photographer improve their technique and appears to be a lot of patting each other on the back to perhaps have that reciprocated with there own images.

Pagly2, 5 months ago

sorry I ‘got under your skin’ ...Alison…......what I wrote were simply my thoughts…...
perhaps it would have been better had you READ what I wrote and not what you ‘thought’ I wrote….......and you made my point….......you saw in my comments what YOU saw…not what I wrote…..?

Alison Johnston in reply to Pagly2’s comment, 5 months ago

You didn’t get under my skin, and obviously they were your thoughts :-)

I did read what you wrote and not everyone is a critic or knows enough about photography to post something technically useful to a photographer. I wouldn’t know the first thing about poetry and/or short story writing. ‘Nice’ comments are nice … I would probably say something similar about your writing, but if you wanted to improve your writing, what I said wouldn’t be useful.

Alison Johnston in reply to Christopher Ewing’s comment, 5 months ago

Hi Christopher,

Whatever works for you and you feel comfortable doing, is what you should be doing.

Instead of calling yourself a purist, you can now say ‘my preferred workflow’ LOL

Just like film photography didn’t end when one pressed the shutter, digital photography does not end there either. Photography is a process.

Did you watch the Schewe interview ? A lot of professionals use the auto settings and fix the final settings in Camera RAW, it isn’t cheating ….... Studio photographers still have everything set up to produce the best possible outcome …. landscape and wildlife photographers still put themselves in the best position to grab that magical moment.

DSLR users will tell you that you can’t take a decent shot with a point and shoot or digicam – go take a look at my portfolio. There is much more to photography than the camera one uses, if one chooses to post process or work in camera ….. the main thing is being able to ‘see’ the image.

Christopher E... in reply to Alison Johnston’s comment, 5 months ago

well ya can call me whatcha want..and ill call me what i want..and we both call it even ;-)
and im just now starting to shoot in RAW, but all i do..is convert to another file, and it does work for me, and its as comfy as my pair of sweats :) so that is what i stick to
and i already…”see” the image..so my battle is won :)

Alison Johnston in reply to Christopher Ewing’s comment, 5 months ago

LMAO – What makes you comfortable, is what you should do Christopher.

I used to have this fabulous quote from an old time photographer … must see if I still have it on my computer somewhere, it really does sum everything up in a couple of sentences.

Alison Johnston in reply to Christopher Ewing’s comment, 5 months ago

I found the quotes Christopher.

“The camera doesn’t make a bit of difference. All of them can record what you are seeing. But, you have to SEE.”

Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep.

I just can’t remember who said them.

Alison Johnston, 5 months ago

The first quote is by Ernst Hass

Christopher E... in reply to Alison Johnston’s comment, 5 months ago

i watched that vid, the guy didnt really go explain what i havent already heard about RAW, however, the interviewer, i know i have seen him around this area, probably in the smokies, i googled him and found a link where he has given all sorts of tutorials, ill ck those out later, because id like to try out..DIGITAL art!! and my motto is this…you can shoot with anything, as long as you have the “eye” to see it, from what a lot of people have told me, im fortunate to have that natural eye. im always up for improvement with my shooting, i learn something each time i go out because i dont stick with just one setting, i learn what my camera can and cant do, when and when not to use a certain setting.. when i give people advice, i tell them ..try different settings, take home, download..and then go from there, and of course..practice practice practice..and just when you think you have it all down..practice s’more

and sorry andy this has gotten alittle off your original topic

Alison Johnston in reply to Christopher Ewing’s comment, 5 months ago

The interviewer was Bert Monroy, who happens to be my favourite photoshopper – catch him at the Revision 3 website, look for the PixelPerfect show.

It’s all about practising, whatever the endeavour is. The interview probably wasn’t the best, but his Real world Camera Raw book is …. I just prefer videos because I’m a visual learner.

blamo, 5 months ago

its all good

peter, 5 months ago

Cheers for the journal post Andy – it’s been something we’ve been grappling with for months. Things can very quickly get out of hand on the Internet – criticism can be misinterpreted. But I feel we are missing something important by not having it on the site. Maybe we can have something like a moderated BubbleMail – so that a third party checks all critique before it is released to ensure that it’s being sent in the right spirit. I’ll spend some more time musing on this …

Alison Johnston in reply to peter’s comment, 5 months ago

Why not start a new group Peter, specifically for constructive criticism ? I have no idea what you could call it, but those who are interested in having their images evaluated by others would join and would understand what the group was about.

AndyReeve, 5 months ago

Thank you all for your comments; much appreciated.I am glad to say that I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest. Generally it is leaning towards bubblemail for constructive crits. I am minded to agree.
I had a thought or two since posting both of which are mentioned above by like minded souls.

a) ‘a dedicated crit page’. No to that as it would make the crits available to members and may put peeps off.

b) My favoured option would be a button next to the reply button which automatically generates text in a bubble mail saying something like : ‘Polite Request. I would like to offer you some constructive crit on you pic (title auto added). Plese reply if you are interested’.

Your thoughts

Andy

AndyReeve in reply to peter’s comment, 5 months ago

Just added further toughts

Thank you all for your comments; much appreciated.I am glad to say that I seem to have stirred up a hornets nest. Generally it is leaning towards bubblemail for constructive crits. I am minded to agree.
I had a thought or two since posting both of which are mentioned above by like minded souls.
a) ‘a dedicated crit page’. No to that as it would make the crits available to members and may put peeps off.
b) My favoured option would be a button next to the reply button which automatically generates text in a bubble mail saying something like : ‘Polite Request. I would like to offer you some constructive crit on you pic (title auto added). Plese reply if you are interested’.
Your thoughts
Andy

Pagly2 in reply to peter’s comment, 5 months ago

P…Lease….I thought we were all Adults here…do we really need comments moderated…...even critique….............over the past 2 days I have seen “writing’ that to me is VERY offensive…..I do not wish to read of ‘someones sex life..BUT I appreciate that others do…......on another writing the ‘language’ was ro me offensive..i dont believe over the top language is necessary to get the meaning across….BUT again I said nothing because I appreciate that ‘some’ like this…........Comments and critique are just that one persons thoughts….........and so to me a Mod to moderate critique is insulting….........for goodness sake people lets grow up and stop being so thin skinned…....we left school behind many years ago…at least I did…..

AndyReeve, 5 months ago

Did someone mention moderating comments. Must have missed that one. Def NO!!!
We have a Nanny State hear in the UK and they are already taking big bites out of free speech. Pleeeeease no more!!!!!

Pagly2, 5 months ago

I AGREE…Andy….......but sad to say we already have it here on RedB….....mods who delete what doesn’t take there ‘fancy’.....??? with not even an explanation…..
I believe Mods should/could/would step in if things got out of hand….or were becoming close to getting out of hand….............and what is wrong with the members also taking responsibility and advising members if they think they are getting a bit too hot under the collar…................
As a Site Admin on a Bengali site trust me..some discussions get VERY heated….and most of our members are young ...under 20yrs…...rarely do I or the mods have to step in
and for the curious..NO I am not Muslim but the members are….and they respect the fact that if I step in its because there is a VERY good reason for me to do so….
I think your suggestion (and I have seen some put it on there pieces ) if you wish critique….mention it in the post….....but be aware you may not LIKE the critique…..
otherwise critique should be left to bubblemail….

GlennB, 5 months ago

I get the impression from all the above that we just want the good comments reflected below our pics? Obviously.
It’s not really how the world outside www works though is it. Musicians, artists, actors, athletes of every calibre are critiqued publically, often negatively. Very negatively. As proffessionals they have to take it on the chin and keep going & growing.
In our case would a neg comment below a pic really put off a buyer? What really is the point of a long list of wows below a pic other than ego stroking? Does that not seem false somehow?
Know this though, if you do comment with constructive crit your comment may seem unduly negative not just to the artist, but to other readers. Inadvertantly your “negative” comment may actually spark interest in a piece with readers siding with the artist.
That’s how I feel, maybe I’ve (luckily?) just reached a point when I don’t really mind much if somebody burns my best efforts.
Do I offer crit? Not unless I’m asked, otherwise I just comment on the stuff I like. Hypocritical? Nah, if my pics don’t pic up fav comments I remove them from RB.
P.S. apologies for the any spelling errors its early & RB doesn’t offer spellcheck. Lol.

Pagly2, 5 months ago

I agree with you GlenB….......except when it comes to people new to ‘airing’ their innermost thoughts….artwork …in public….then critism can def do more harm than good…......otherwise GOOD POST…I agree….

AndyReeve, 5 months ago

Agreed (Glenn) I am now thinking that the comments should not be on public view too.

bodymechanic, 5 months ago

andy well put and its good to see its gathered a healthy discussion and momentum, i had sum1 comment the other day about my cubeman3 as “a piece of shit” so i said i would accept it if they could critique it properly and in its current form i couldn’t respect
their opinion due to their lack of show of intelligence. via bubblemail, and the rest of
the banter is on the awesum reply to comment button!
i am for open constructive helpful criticism, in the open but after someone that is quik to
criticize has looked at that persons whole portfolio to see wot their stuf is about. if you
do it by bubblemail it is only a one sided critique by ( someone who may not have any
bloody idea wot they are about) in the open ur peers can give the pluses and minuses
in the open and also put the person critiquing through their paces! open honhesty ,no
patronising keeping it reel and learning from it.
bottom line is i don’t care wot anyone finks of my stuf as i enjoy making it, but i WILL
LISTEN to properly thought out critiques to help me be a better artist. and i will look
at the way and wot an artist does b4 ill remotely fink of critiquing work!
thats my 5cents.
sorry a bit more to add! if you want to put ur stuf in public u have to expect sum pretty
crap criticism, learn to take it in and process it duly. if u cant handle it , have a strong thought about wot u really want to do, cause if ur not prepared for it wen u show ur art
ur not really fairdinkum about ur ART, this is wot i tell sum of the new young artists
that i help mentor…man i could go on and on….
anyways i expect a numba of u will critque this fire away, but u know wot spelling and
gramatical errors are part of my artistic makeup, so u’ll all have to get ova it..
man u read this far well done
steve (famous wen dead artist!)

bodymechanic, 5 months ago

i do need to learn how to structure the paragraphs properly though..eerk

GlennB, 5 months ago

Good point Steve about open honesty and the danger of bubblemail perhaps being onesided. Oh & I reckon you structured that pretty well!!

lightsmith, 5 months ago

totally agree with this. A little while ago I penned my version so I am so pleased to read this. AND extremely pleased to find the photo-zen group – not sure if I’ll ever have anything good enough to contribue though.