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Remodernist Painters' Group - 2/CALENDAR MONTH

Remodernism is an alternative to the established High Art hegemony, known as Post-Modernism.

RPG attacked by Mary Sedici of TPiMT

Carson Collins Carson Collins 639 posts

On the 16th of June, 2011, the RPG was gratuitously and libelously attacked by Mary Sedici, one of the hosts at Traditional Painters in Modern Times.

In her forum post Ms. Sedici characterized the RPG as "a ‘GROUP WITH MINIMAL OR NO ACTIVE HOST PARTICIPATION’ with ‘random activity in (the) forum only’”.

This unprovoked attack by a much larger group within the redbubble community has no doubt damaged our credibility and done incalculable harm to my reputation as well as that of the Remodernist movement as a whole.

I have demanded a public apology and I urge all members of the RPG who know Ms. Sedici’s allegations to be false to post in the TPiMT forum and to contact Ms. Sedici via bubblemail and voice your objections.

reclusiveartist reclusiveartist 316 posts

Carson, this is indeed inexcusable. I have had trouble with Ms. Sedici in the past. She does not know how to work well and play well with others. She is very thin skinned, holds grudges, but feels free to spew whatever crap she wants. I will certainly speak up about this. These are lies.

nexus7 nexus7 294 posts

Oh, what????

I know Ihave been a little apathetic hrere myself, but all the same…what does she expect?? Did she pay for a service here?

Carson Collins Carson Collins 639 posts

Nothing could be farther from the truth. The RPG maintains a strict one-contribution-per-calendar-month-per-member policy, something that is not supported by the redbubble software. I doubt that any other existing redbubble group requires this level of continuous hands-on “HOST PARTICIPATION”. Ms Sedici’s post is irresponsible and unsubstantiated at best and malicious at worst.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. (Hanlon’s Razor).

I have noticed that participation in the forums has fallen off across the board subsequent to recent changes in the redbubble format, however Ms Sedici, as a representative of TPiMT, is in no position to point the finger at us.

Pat  knight Pat knight 10 posts

Be a sport Mary, lifes too short to grouse about one`s fellow artists!

Linda Ridpath Linda Ridpath 583 posts

You know, i always thought that an artist painted what and when the mood takes them. over criticism and the joining of ‘groups’, conforming and toeing the line is no way to develop an artistic thought. I dont need a ‘host’ breathing down my neck all the time, or asking me to paint on demand for a challenge. I like the Remodernist Group exactly the way it is; chilled, relaxed, individual and full of talent. Vive la Remodernist. Shame on you Ms Sedici

Christine Clarke Christine Clarke 834 posts

I totally support you on this, Carson!! Some hosts are indeed very dictatorial, you kinda “go with the flow”, yet passionate. You have your finger on the pulse, so to speak, so that your hosting is unobtrusive, yet still supportive. I feel we have QUALITY here, rather than QUANTITY. I did see that discussion you are talking about in PiMT, I think Mary was referrring to a lot of other groups as well, not singling you out. Keep up your excellent work my friend, rest assured that from a members’ point of view, you are the perfect host!!!
@Linda,Pat,Nexus,Lisa, my thoughts exactly.

Carson Collins Carson Collins 639 posts

Thank you all for the support. The RPG’s unique policy guarantees that each one of our members has a minimum of approximately 48 hours of exposure on our overview page per calendar month. Contribute an image to any other fair-to-large group at the bubble and watch it disappear from the overview page within moments, relatively speaking.

Early in the month when most of our members contribute content I even try to do themed virtual shows with the “Recent Work” on our overview page, for example the current theme is portrait heads, which will run until 5 September. The first theme this month was pure abstraction.

By the way, I’m still looking for an image from one of you to use as the exemplar for our next “Challenge”, AIR, the second of the four alchemical elements.

Pinkham Pinkham 12 posts

Mary’s bio states she is a hybrid child…..no brain or heart, just a battery. I don’t come down here much, but like the rest of you I have a life outside of REDBUBBLE. Pay her no mind.

Carson Collins Carson Collins 639 posts

Hi Pinkham!

Ms Sedici never communicated with me in private before attacking me in public, and I’m interested to see just how long it will take her to notice my post.

I’m not angry and no good purpose is served by hostility, I’m just curious to see how long it will take the “actively participating” hosts of TPiMT to discover the little shit-storm that Ms Sedici has created in their own forum.

Thank you for your support and participation, it is much appreciated.

Amy-Elyse Neer Amy-Elyse Neer 331 posts

I’ve been watching this topic and I feel the need to step in and say a few things Some in defense of Mary, and Some in defense of the RPG. But I’ve been thinking this out over the course of the last few days.

Stuff I’d like to say in defense of Mary;
She promises and delivers a truly staggering amount of group activity. (personally, I think she should slow down or she’ll drive herself bonkers) But the groups she runs, she makes it clear from the get go that they are super active and that the feature turn over is fast and there are gonna be a ton of challenges. And she does deliver.My point with this is that Her definition of active is WAY more active than most of the other groups I belong to, and, I am guessing, most of the other groups on redbubble. It can’t be easy to spend that much time and energy doing what basically amounts to not actually getting any art done, so other people have an active experience with the groups she runs.

Stuff I’d like to say in defense of the RPG;
Carson, you promise and deliver a certain laid back no pressure engaging level of group activity, and by that I mean there is very little stress, the once a month rule makes you really consider your works with a critical (in a good way) eye, when forum topics happen here they are worth coming by to weigh in on and it’s one of the few places where you can get some good art talk online. There is more consideration of the pieces here because you have time to really look and talk about stuff. This group’s definition of active is way more mellow, and it’s very nice. (Especially if you have other groups that are more frenzied)

Basically with this group and Marys’ groups you get what you were promised in the group rules, therefore all of hers and your groups are equally active on that level, in that they do what they say they will do.

What I cannot defend; Lack of research.

I can see where Mary, looking at the basic information of the stats for this group, may see through her lens of constant activity that this group looks un-used to her degree. So I can understand the misconception happpening. But on the same token, isn’t deciding when groups are inactive redbubble’s job?

At the very least I feel Mary should have contacted the group hosts on her list and asked them if their group was still active. And failing that she should have checked the group rules to see if, in fact, the group was active as far as the rules for the group go.

I think a list of defunct groups is an excellent idea, I am in some lovely groups I was really enjoying that suddenly just stopped all activity a year or so ago. I am in a few that promised a certain level of activity but only deliver a quarter of that (one of those promises a challenge a month and weekly feature schedule, but so far all they have done that I can see is not allow you to put more than the first panel of a series of works up, literally, the only activity I’ve ever seen from them was a decline on the second and third panels of a series of work I’d planned on submitting in their allowed per day schedule. They accepted the first panel, then told me the next to was “too similar” even tho it was clearly marked as 1,2 and 3 of a series, as I do a lot of serial sets I’ve just stopped submitting to them altogether)

So I can see where a list of defunct groups or groups that aren’t meeting their own rules and guidlines could be useful to the artist looking for groups to join. But while I think Mary’s heart was near the right place in trying to provide a service for artists looking for groups, I do feel that this would be a better job for redbubble since they can make a judgement based on what the group promises and what they deliver, contact hosts easier, close groups down, or post a “Does anyone want to take this group over?” post in the groups forums, etc.

I think if Mary had done a little more research it would have been better done.

What I cannot defend; Calling her out without offering her the same courtesy you, yourself, are annoyed over the lack of.
If you would have preferred a private contact first, then I feel that should have been your first step with her.

I never would have seen her list if I hadn’t seen this, and the time between when you posted this and when she posted that is about 3 months… so I think it is not as “OUT THERE WHERE EVERYONE CAN SEE IT” as you may think (your post in that forum is actually the next post after hers, and the time between them is three months. I feel like if you had contacted her privately she’d have altered the list and maybe done some research on the other groups and possibly edited or deleted her post.

I realize, of course, in posting this I have possibly pissed you and Mary both off and might be removed from the groups involved, but I just felt I had to say this and get it out.

Carson Collins Carson Collins 639 posts

Thank you for your input, Amy-Elyse. You make some good points, and we would certainly never remove anyone from the RPG for stating an opinion. I am very much opposed to censorship, and I work constantly to make the group grow by inviting painters from other groups at redbubble and other places on the Web to join us. I value your contribution and hope you’ll stick around.

I take your point insofar as I am, indeed, doing the same thing that Ms Sedici did by publishing this rather than contacting her in private. She took it upon herself to create a shit list and put us on it, so I don’t think she can legitimately complain about my public response. I am not doing this out of spite but rather in order to make a point.

Yes if I had noticed this 3 months ago I would have probably contacted her or one of the other TPiMT hosts privately but that isn’t the way it happened. I have my hands full moderating this forum and although I am a member of TPiMT I do not consider monitoring the posts in their forum to be my responsibility.

They have maintained a list of other groups focusing on traditional painting techniques for a long time (a courtesy which I appreciated) and I never had any reason to suspect the presence of the shit list until now. Frankly, I’m shocked that TPiMT would allow such a thing. A list of “defunct” groups might be seen as a useful reference but to my way of thinking it is just as easily interpreted as the malicious act of a self-appointed vigilante. The people who are members of the groups should decide for themselves whether or not the quality of their experience there justifies continued participation, and, if it doesn’t, the proper place to air such criticism would be in that group’s own forum, not at TPiMT.

Amy-Elyse Neer Amy-Elyse Neer 331 posts

The list itself is a concern as I do not believe she researched the groups on it, the Fine Art of Human Portraiture, which I am also a member of, is a reasonably active group to my experience with them, so I am kind of curious why it is on the list. Which is why I believe that while such a list could be handy if accurate, maybe the best thing is for redbubble to actively go through and research and cull defunct groups. Like the host changed the name to “Not accepting work” and then dropped of the face of the bubble for a year and no one seemed to notice or post in the forums about the lack of activity, then I think redbubble going in making a “Is anyone home? Does anyone want to take this group over?” post is the reasonable thing to do.

and if no one shows any desire or responds at all… then just delete the group.

I just spent about an hour browsing thru the group list form the community page. and there were an awful lot of groups that looked (on the surface) like they had really been abondoned… group titles changed to basically state “no one one is here”, one or two ancient forum posts and hardly any works.

there’s 150 pages of groups, and that’s a lot to browse thru, especially given that the group search is iffy at best and oftentimes you can’t quite find what you are looking for with the search function. So removing the TRULY unused groups, that’s not a bad thing, they are taking up space on a list that’s hard enough to find anything on.

I mean if you could sort them by whether or not they accept photography or tee shirts or are invitation only or by activity level (like let’s say I only want to join low pressure laid back groups, I’d like redbubble to give me a list of groups with a constant yet low level of activity, if I want a constant stream of stuff I want it to give me a list of feeding frenzy groups) Or if I do mainly one type of art, lets say I’m really into car art, (I’m not particularly, but this is just an example)

I’d want to put car into the filter and get back all groups that take cars, vehicles, street scenes, etc not just the one group with "car " in it’s name.

So I do see a need for some clean up of the list of groups, or possibly a better search/filter for looking for groups. But as I said before I think this is a job for redbubble.

Carson Collins Carson Collins 639 posts

Yes I agree that the search function at redbubble could be improved. I also think (and I’ve said this before) that the number of groups that a person can be a member of – or host – should be limited.

For example, Ms Sedici is a member of 82 redbubble groups and I think any reasonable person would agree that it is literally impossible for a working artist to “actively participate” in that many groups.

Unfortunately the trend is to try to grab attention by spamming as many groups as possible with the same images over and over, and the system encourages this. This has resulted in the valuation of competition over community, numbers over ideas, and the creation of groups that are really just automated shells. Lights on, nobody home – but a search engine can’t see the difference.

All that aside, redbubble remains the best available platform that we have to promote the Remodernist movement, and that’s why I continue to provide content for them.

The sad part about all this is that I have devoted hundreds of hours of my life to making sure that the RPG did not fall into the “defunct” category. To be shit-listed by a much larger group along with those others is grotesquely unjust.

I only belong to two redbubble groups, the RPG and TPiMT, and I will have to leave TPiMT if they do not publish a retraction. Not that I’ll be missed over there among 3,628 painters, but it’s a sad state of affairs when we can’t get along with each other any better than that.

The RPG has 568 members, at least half of whom are here by invitation, 168 of whom contributed work last month. As Christine Clarke observed, I have tried to make this project about quality, not quantity.

I respect the good people at TPiMT for what they’ve achieved as the largest (albeit perhaps the most broadly defined) painters’ group. Nevertheless libel is a serious matter and I’m not going to be bullied. The facts support our position.

Marilyn Brown Marilyn Brown 4336 posts

Carson,

as a host of TPiMT I sincerely regret the posting of that list at all and have now removed it. Mary does do things with the best intent but unfortunately it doesn’t always hit the mark.

I just became aware of this and I am truly sorry.

The way RPG is run should be an example to redbubble because it is much better to have quality rather than quantity. It is this that has waned my participation in RB.

Once again I wholeheartedly apologize for any disruption or offense taken and on a purely personal note agree with the point you make above.

Carson Collins Carson Collins 639 posts

Thank you, Marylin, for your gracious apology and kind words. I was sure from the start that you never had anything to do with the now deleted shit list, because you have always been polite to me and a voice of reason when debates took place over policy issues within the community. I have noticed that the forum at TPiMT has not been what it once was lately, and I attributed that to Nigel R. (kafka) Pugh’s departure as well as to the policy changes at redbubble that shook things up so much 7 months ago. Now I also realize that you are not as active as a host as you once were. You and I have never had a problem in the past and I’m tremendously relieved that we don’t have one now. You always were a class act and I didn’t want to leave TPiMT.

If I’ve posted anything that you want deleted here please let me know and I’ll take care of it. I’m tempted to leave this on line as a cautionary tale and I must admit that it has at least generated some much-needed activity in our forums (it’s an ill wind indeed that blows nobody any good, as the saying goes) but since you have deleted the offending list I feel obliged to reciprocate in whatever way you wish.

Linda Ridpath Linda Ridpath 583 posts

Thank you marilyn for being so reasonable and kind in this discussion.