What do Writers' Want and Need (Opinions to better the Writers' Market group)

When I started this group, I was hoping it would be a resource that would help writers’ achieve their writing goals, receive feedback on work or have their works promoted as such.

I’ve set up certain points as group guidelines which has helped established the group.

NOW, going into 2008, I’m hoping redefine the group. My mind keeps asking this question:

1. What do Writer’s really want from this site and what do they want to achieve (either here or elsewhere in the world) with their works?

If I can gather answers to this question, perhaps I can make the guidelines work better for the group and us writers.

Anyone willing to share some thoughts?

[I also have this as a JE if you’d like to respond there]

PS: I’ve already got some ideas collected in the Writing Features post. I’m looking more to fine tune this for the Writers’ Market group.

HI again. Sorry, responded to your post.
Have a look at “Writers Features” thread here in this forum Veronica. It has some valuable info and I really wish there was some way we could use it to impress on RedBubble that what we have as writers so far with this site is a far cry from what we need. I joined in April last year and the messages were stuff for writers “coming soon”. Still waiting. Had some diversions in the meantime but it really is all about the writing for me and I’m starting to look elsewhere (and I really don’t want to).

RedBubble has been fun, but it’s time to get serious if you want writers to stay here.

Yes I agree. I will go through that post. My fear is that rb would eventually dissolve writing altogether if it continues to be “just” for fun. I could be paranoid and probably are. Also, as more people comment on stories etc the more people start to take their writing seriously. RB’s writers are developing as much as it’s membership. Yet, there hasn’t been much development to counter this. I’m sure there are plans and the intention. I feel it’s on the end of a long list to do. By the time something gets done, it’s too late.

So far as I can recall from the top of my head,it’s been suggested:

1. bookcovers or image collaborations considered for the homepage.

1. Gradients for headers can be used to give the writing link some attraction.

1. modifications to the site itself to give writing a dedicated homepage spot.

1. a sort of picklist book people can buy (collaborating various images and writing into one volume)

1. there is hints of a magazine for red bubble. Not sure if this is definate, how it’ll be run etc.

1. Each writing group tries to motivate and entice with competitions and challenges.

The big question I have is “Can Red Bubble be a professional publisher or can they be partners to those that are?” It’s a big question with millions of questions underneath it.

Just rambling top of my head

Veronica: you are never enough paranoid. The writing field seems to be perfect for paranoid people XD And yes, lack of updates usually might imply a little thing called: “ALARM”

I’ve been here since february and, besides seeing a writing tab and a different formatting for written pieces, little has been done to improve this. Of course, RB has a bunch to do and the image counterpart absolutely outnumbers the writers, who have this “I hide, you seek me” complex or are just plain fans of ostracism like me and barely venture to post or express ideas in fear the black raven claw of doom wants to steal them.

Well, I would add the little essays I wrote at the other thread… you can take a look at ‘em if you want to. I even dragged a friend to post and express some ideas as well.

For your big question: RB can be a good and profitable on-demand printer/publishing service if they propose to (and hire the appropriate personal to handle the texts, which aren’t pictures and paintings, which is good, they might require less complications like card-cropping or ICC profiles but they do need editors and style correctors for proper grammar+spelling in order to guarantee a good output product) Also, a template should be built for proper text formatting. One thing is on-screen text, the other is text ready to be printed.

The advantage of on-demand is that allows to print the right amount of copies for the right amount of people at any given time without cluttering the market with 2 million copies you HAVE to sell in order for the publishing house to continue offering support to your “caused” (aka = to keep writing and probably earn money from it!)

Some people say writers can be lazy and complicated… I know both sides of the story. I have edited and corrected a bunch of stuff. It’s not the most rewarding task and in fact can be the source of nightmares (I still remember the italian sociologist and the abstract of his essay, god that was awful…)
Over here it’s an absolutely under-paid job and hardly gets recognised (the equivalent of 350-400usd or a bit per month is close to what a new editor can earn sometimes they pretend to pay even less than that… welcome to the “third world”, another dimension of this sphere of oddities called Earth)

About the writers: I challenge anyone who has the “good ideas” and thinks writing is so easy to sit channel those ideas on a text. My reply: See? It’s not that easy, huh? Takes time and sometimes a lot of frustration. The constant interruptions, the worries, kids (if you have them), etc. Easier said than done. It’s easy to talk but, at the moment of truth… – about to go philosophic -

These stuff also applies to painting and many many other artistic expressions so I’ll not generalize but, well, I hope I explained myself clearly… I always have that doubt because I think in spanish and I have to output that in english =P

Abyssal, you express yourself in English eloquently (and that is not supposed to sound patronising).

Veronica, adding to your list, I was told early to mid last year that RB was considering publishing options as in hard copy publishing but that was the last I heard of it.

It’s all very well for RB to run competitions that include a writing component, but if they are serious about publishing, they need to develop this first THEN run the competition. That way they’re not going to get fly by nighters enterting their comps, getting kudos, then taking it with them to somewhere else.

I challenge anyone who has the “good ideas” and thinks writing is so easy to sit channel those ideas on a text.

I agree with that. Although, when I started writing, I never thought it was easy. Making up stories is easy; writing them is a pain in the (insert cussing here).

Sheeze! For a lot of detailed work you have to do Abyssal, you get basically peanuts for it. It’s rewarding in the end? I hope?

Veronica, adding to your list, I was told early to mid last year that RB was considering publishing options as in hard copy publishing but that was the last I heard of it.

If it’s traditional publishing the bubble want to do then they will need to contract editors, brokers etc. This is a whole new business.

The cheaper option is to start as an eBook publisher then move into POD using online distributions such as Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, Target etc.

Another option for POD is partnering with local independant bookstores and seeing if they would stock a small amount of books for sale in return for an after-sale profit cut or promotional incentives RB can do for them.

PS: They would still need to contract an editor or editor services to ensure the written quality etc, and a proofer for cover layouts etc.

Again, just talking from the top of my head.

Oh, we had a de-valuation in 2002. Our money is worth three times less compared to an USA dollar, almost five times less than an euro (this absolutely locks up and renders extremely HARD to reach Europe) and such… In short: something that takes X effort for someone in the USA here takes you three times that effort in a matter of work time. Too complex for this thread… but it’s also one of the reasons I’m picking freelance works with flexible times rather than being exploited slave-like for pennies 9-10 hours per day, five days a week. Ok, ok, it’s quite long to explain.

mmm… I love editing, I love writing and the few works I’ve done so far, despite being quite stressful at times, helped me to gather that damned thing called “experience”.

Anne, I’m not sure if they would take much kudos if the contest is properly prepared to avoid that as in: a judge analyses the entries and there are strict guidelines to follow. Again, written works aren’t pictures so an “anything goes” policy is, as I already stated once, a recipe for chaos. I’m not implying to limit the topics writers can submit (hell no, I’m usually against it, I love genre variety) but to offer clear formatting rules and seriousness to avoid conflict. – goes serious – xP

dang, you already replied again! haha, well, yes, they will eventually need editors and probably correctors as well (the editor does the editing and makes sure the products are properly done plus it also surveys the corrector’s activity)

I should dig into my Univ papers and scan the typical parts involved in the editing/publishing process. Want me to do that later?

Thanks Abyssal. If you want to delve into the process that would be great. I’m pretty much interested myself as I only have small independant publisher knowledge from an authors point of view.

Maybe RB could contract your services if the publications should happen?

I feel like I’m interrupting somehow, but oh well, I wanted to post anyway.
A better critiquing system would be awesome. I would love to get comments to improve my writing, and I’m sure everyone would like to know what they can improve on. I feel feedback is quite important for some while other’s tend to write for themselves and the warm fuzzy feeling when someone says they really enjoyed reading that story is just an added bonus.
Perhaps the option to add critique wanted on the side of the page of a story just under the authors comments?
This is just a suggestion.
What people write for is different. We’re all motivated by different things. I used to have this problem where I’d prefer to write a story, believing I could describe it better then draw it but now it appears to be the other way round, mainly because I feel a lot of my stories are too childish to be posted on here. That and people don’t comment on them, so I’m unsure if people liked them (or saw them)
Also, i guess the writing section could be more organized…AND much more closer to the art and tshirts.

Thanks Lucky Dog. I’ve set up a forum for people to critique and post for critique but it’s just collecting dust at the moment. It may change if writing is given more options etc. I’ve noticed a few people have added the request for feedback in their stories.

Yes, people do write for different reasons. From what I’ve gathered, there’s mainly two reasons (I could be wrong). One reason is to share and the other is publication. The motivations vary behind each. So, it’s interesting you brought this up and gives me something to work on.

LD, no you aren’t. The more people talking about this, the better.

Having an option to receive critiques sounds interesting. The comment system worked for that so far but… As LD stated, some people may not want feedback, ergo, they could simply lock down the comment option. And your stories childish????? I lol I’m still thinking it’s the other way around. You have improved A LOT at drawing, building your own style but I think you should not ditch or dismiss writing at all as you are also strong on that field (or “in”? T_T)

Yes, the writing section is a tab right next to art and clothing but I think writing is also art! Problem is: without that tab nobody would even know there is a writing section to begin with. A problem like this is also noticeable at the usual photograph vs. paintings dilemma.

But let’s stick to writing. We already discussed a lot so time to go for the action.

Veronica, as promised here is the basic structure of a conventional editing process and the parts involved. Now, in the digital era, things can change a lot. I reflected this on my thesis, trying to explain the dinosaurs that sometimes not many people can ask a turn at the printer or have enough budget to support a full-scale offset print, no matter how cheap it can get (it doesn’t, paper+ink over here are uber expensive at the moment)

Taken from “El Mundo de la Edición de Libros”, Paidós Diagonales, 2005. (“The World of Book Publishing”, arguably the first serious attempt at bibliography fully in spanish, with zero translation and articles prepared by a bunch of latin american famous editors and such… 95% of them were my professors!)

Note: this data is aimed at technical editing (academic/non-fiction), which is the field I got better marks at till I passed Style Correction (which completed the circle and let me say I can also try to edit fiction =P)

Stages======================Parts Involved
a: Pre-editing=================Publisher/Editor/Editorial Team
b: Writing of the Original=========Writer
c: Editing====================Editor
d: Style Correction=============Corrector
e: Page/Book Setup============Graphics Designer
f: Correction of First Tests========Corrector/Editor/Qualified Person
g: Adjustments and Second Tests=Same
h: Final Prototype==============Designer/Editor

Some steps are set in stone (proper editing, correction and the design of the book for example), others may suffer variations. Nothing is really static anymore.

After this, the editing side is concluded and the pre-print setup begins, then the printing, building of the products, inventory revision, logistics, distribution, etc, etc, etc.

Yay, glad I can talk about the stuff I’m supossedly expert at. Hope that helped a bit clearing the mess of the manuscript-to-published-book process.
And yes, at this point you can notice where the writing “for fun” (as stated in previous posts) or just to calm down the people ends and where the serious one begins.

Thanks Abyssal. I’ll save this. LD should see writing as another skill. It’s good stuff.

My idea:

Development of writers groups around the regions/state. Where people actually get together at a location (someone’s house, arty cafe, library or whereveer) and talk about their works in a social setting. Maybe we can submit a work or excerpt a week prior to the meetings (need to decide on frequency) and all read the work, make comments, then discuss, critique, give advice etc.

Through RB and member contacts we might be able to have guest speakers come in – people from the writing industry. Through my studies I’ve heard guest speakers from Cheap Eats, Finance Magazines, Newspaper feature writers, published fiction authors…their experience and advice are invaluable.

Groups could be structured on interest (romance, gothic fiction, poetry, non-fiction) or geographic boundaries (Melbourne East, Darwin, etc etc).

I studied professional writing at RMIT and have done many courses on writing as well – the most valuable thing to take from these courses and from groups was the critiquing. I know how to write and can always learn new things, but having feedback is usually the one thing missing for many writers. And those who attend the groups are obviously committed to the process.

I also studied at RMIT and had professional guest speakers come in from the games industry. It is really encouraging, as well as helpful.
I was thinking that it’d be nice if we could get people from publishing on the site to check out some stuff, or post some stuff (seeing as not everyone lives in the same state or country) but I was worried that they’d want to be paid so I kept quiet.
I guess I wouldn’t mind some fellow RBlers

I don’t have any suggestions other than that already stated but I am very much interested in writing and have been following this thread closely. Some of my weak points in writing would be poor grammar; lack of vocabulary and common expressions/ slang used – eg “the pot calling the kettle black” which all restricts my creative thoughts becoming words. I look at other writing examples to improve, but to find similar writing and analyse how it applies to my style is difficult and time consuming.

As suggested above: critique…
But to further detail how it may be applied: perhaps writers could post ‘corrections’ or suggest reconstruction of phrase/ sentences on other member’s work. Understandably, not everyone wants others to correct their writing…which brings that dilemma of people too afraid to express themselves in fear of stepping on others and the big drawn out drama that follows – made public of course through journals.

Please note: I really appreciate writers (photographers too) giving their insight in this field. Thank you.

I woud linvite guest speakers on the basis that they did it pro bono – most are more than happy, and magazine editors for example (usually smaller magazines) tend to want to reach out to new potential contributors.

Very good feedback here. Lots to map out.

So far:

• Feedback forum or something similar would need to be properly implemented for written work.

• Guest speakers from the writing industry would be handy.

I’ll add

• Learning Centre of sorts. Where skilled writers can be mentors for those just starting out. Articles with tips and stuff can be posted. There could be a question and answer forum etc.

• Industry knowledge Centre. I’ve already go some material in the group but I think tweaking the forum better would make things work.

The ability to add comments like in microsoft word would be nice, that’s a great idea. I feel my vocabulary tends to let me down.
@Melanie Dooley, if you have Firefox web browser, it has an internal spell checker that will check your spelling and grammar (it’s not as good as Microsoft, which isn’t really all that good, but I figured it would help)

If only we could have a wiki lol!

i initially joined redbubble after noticing a strong writers presence when i checked out a friends art works posted…i have added to a group here and there but not much….so as an outsider a few observations…...the active/vocal writers are a close and almost closed group it appears—-for example a perusal of the featured writings will show multiple works by a few writers( mind you i certainly don’t want to be there as i’m a member primairly to look at the art works).....many of the moderators are working multiple creative fronts so to speak; everyone does an admirable job but rarely is one equally capable in multiple creative disciplines i.e. someone who is primarily a painter will approach their love of short stories often differently then someone who only writes short stories….also the other problem with this is that some of the moderators of the writers groups while having a great sense of asthetic do not appear to be well versed or trained in the basics of craft/poetics/structure etc. i think this can inhibit participation of members who only write….again just a few observations so no hate mail please…

hmm umbra you are right I think. When I first joined RB I only had photographs up and realised I could have my writing up too! I would say firstly, I write, and secondly, I take photographs. Over time peoples views on my writing and comments have increased, i’ve been featured a couple of times and am quite happy about that. But i’ve been thinking about it and… maybe I should have two seperate accounts? One for photography and one for writing. The only problem then is, I lose all my current watchers who are watching me for my writing. I don’t want to be seen as a writer who photographs or a photographer who writes. I want them both for their own merits. I don’t know what i’m suggesting here, nothing i think lol, maybe just thinking out loud…

Mella x

Thanks guys for the input. Yes development and feedback are some aspects we lack around here. So, what I’ve done is create a wiki site that I hope might offer another avenue and give us a better selection.

Here is the site for the group WMG Wki Site it’s in its teething stages but I hope it will grow as a helpful resource for writers, not just part of this group, but across Red Bubble. If you are willing to contribute, please view this JE first, which gives a basic run through of the site’s conditions.

If you have any questions, please drop me a line.